Do windflags lie?

cdupuy
No I don't shoot 1000yds, I'm sure in that distance many spots along the way could and will affect the drift. However I was talking about 50yds with a .22 bullet and not high power stuff. Lets not mix oranges and apples.
Fred K
 
TangoTwo said:
Landy,

I can't explain why a bullet will drift that much in dead air either. But it's there and it's real. Another problem with dead calm is layered air or thermals. Can't see them on the flags, but they can affect the flight path of the bullet. Don't blame the rifle, most of the rifles we use are capable of very small groups. If you don't see a conditon change, or don't recognize it, not the rifle's fault.
Click to expand...

Ken,

We might have to respectfully disagree on this matter. Nothing new about disagreeing on rimfire accuracy….is there? :D

What are your “or” other shooter’s thoughts on my estimate of winning rifle accuracy?
Do you believe there are rimfires capable of consistently shooting much less than 0.300” for 25 shot groups?
5 shot groups well below this range are relatively easy in my indoor testing, but incredibly rare for me with 25 shot groups and I’ve never done it with a 50 or 100 shot group.

One of the biggest drawbacks in my quest has been my inability to acquire accuracy data from those shooters who may have rimfires much more accurate than mine. I need this data to be able to make direct comparisons with your rifles and refine my testing methodology. At present, I’m reduced to making the estimates stated above.

Until proven otherwise, I still contend that most of these unexplained shots attributed to anomalous wind behavior are simply outliers near the boundaries of how your rimfire normally groups. Have you or others ever tried to shoot a very large multi-shot group under perfect conditions indoors?

As regards layered air and thermals, I’m not capable of testing for this phenomenon or doing the calculations to determine the amount of movement, but I have explored the mirage aspect due to it. When I first started testing I lit my targets with incandescent lights but soon discovered the heat generated was causing about 1 to 2 X-hair diameters of movement and I had to switch to cold fluorescent lighting.

Landy
 
Guns always shoot the same... Wherever the operator touches it off.

The wind affects the bullet, always the same for the exact conditions-which never affect two bullets in a row the same-cause from one bullet to the next the wind will vary weather we recgonize it or not.

The operator is different, also. Consistancy is what gets good scores.

In order to achieve consistancy mfgs use rests to shoot-esp pistols.
 
Quote
As regards layered air and thermals, I’m not capable of testing for this phenomenon or doing the calculations to determine the amount of movement, but I have explored the mirage aspect due to it. When I first started testing I lit my targets with incandescent lights but soon discovered the heat generated was causing about 1 to 2 X-hair diameters of movement and I had to switch to cold fluorescent lighting.
Landy

How far away from the target was your incandescent lights ?
Explain the configuration please.
Thanks
Fred K
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The elephant in the room..

It is assumed that each shot starts out the same way.

That every bullet is perfect.

That every cartridge has the same number of grains and the action/trigger/bore is the same for every shot.

That every trigger press is equivalent..

That barrel heat does not affect the shot.

The best shooters learn the conditions and make the best of them..even wearing red shoes.

How can a flag lie when the wind bends it just so..is it just that the condition is not understood correctly.

:eek::)
 
Landy,

The dead calm change from 3 to 9 o'clock is repeatable. When the flags change from one extreme to the other, your hold will have to move from one side of the ten ring to the other. When the flags turn back to the original direction, your hold will have to go to the original POA. That is not a function of group dispersement.

Most often quoted maximum group size accepted to be competitive is .25" average. That leaves little room for error when shooting at a .25" bull or trying to keep your shot inside a .5" circle. I don't know anyone that shoots 25 shot groups. I do know, and have shot against, several shooters that will shoot 25 tens with 19-20+ X's on an IR50/50 target. That will equate to a small group. However, since this is not shot in a vacuum, several, to lots of, sighters are generally used to confirm condtions.

Ken
 
Paddle flag b. Myers???????

Where can i see a bill myers paddle flag?????????????????
Any body goy a link to them??????
Boer
 
Fred K said:
Quote
As regards layered air and thermals, I’m not capable of testing for this phenomenon or doing the calculations to determine the amount of movement, but I have explored the mirage aspect due to it. When I first started testing I lit my targets with incandescent lights but soon discovered the heat generated was causing about 1 to 2 X-hair diameters of movement and I had to switch to cold fluorescent lighting.
Landy

How far away from the target was your incandescent lights ?
Explain the configuration please.
Thanks
Fred K
Click to expand...

Fred,

I shoot in a very large machinery shed/shop where I store and work on my large farm equipment. It’s about 50’ x 150’ with 20’ ceiling. It’s lit dimly but I like a bright target and hang “trouble lights” quite close to the target (5’ to 7’). If I was to hang them above my line of fire and a little further away, they probably wouldn’t be a factor in producing mirage (Hot air rises and very little if any radiant energy should be produced at the target). Since I also have several portable fluorescent work lights….that’s a simpler solution.
If you’re thinking hot lights might be a factor in indoor or night matches, I can’t give you an answer because I’m just one of those dreaded keyboard shooters that constantly gets tar and feathered on shooting forums.

Landy
 
TangoTwo said:
Landy,

Most often quoted maximum group size accepted to be competitive is .25" average. That leaves little room for error when shooting at a .25" bull or trying to keep your shot inside a .5" circle. I don't know anyone that shoots 25 shot groups. I do know, and have shot against, several shooters that will shoot 25 tens with 19-20+ X's on an IR50/50 target. That will equate to a small group. However, since this is not shot in a vacuum, several, to lots of, sighters are generally used to confirm condtions.

Ken
Click to expand...


Ken,

I would agree with your assessment of accuracy because my estimate assumes POA & POI are perfectly matched and I’m not sure that’s possible to determine under match conditions unless it’s after the fact or in hindsight.

Thanks for the response,
Landy
 
To HuskerP7M8, Glad to see someone with a handle on rim fire accuracy. Have put forth group size of .3 to .5 many times but usually get that old response of "you aren't a real bench rest shooter so what could you know". The "real" bench rest pros always average .25! Some times their maximum groups are .25! Why sometimes they know within .05 where their bullet is going to land....except when it doesn't!

Tango two just said:
Most often quoted maximum group size accepted to be competitive is .25" average.
???????? Your guess is as good as mine! I guess if the average of my maximum groups is .25, that's good enough! But wait what's the maximum of my maximums?

With groups varying .1" in any direction some shooters draw all sorts of conclusions,from a few shots, sometimes only one shot: the effect of wind, how their tuner is doing, effect of temperature, effect of twist, effect of ammo brand or lot number, and on and on!

I think the shooter who is really smart was that guy who just shot 2 shot groups to determine how his equipment was performing. He just got a quick answer so he could get on with shooting his never-over-.25" gun for record!


Guns always shoot the same... Wherever the operator touches it off.
???????Now see, he's got it down to a science!


I can't explain why a bullet will drift that much in dead air
?????Well maybe it's just a breakdown in physics!


In order to achieve consistancy mfgs use rests to shoot-esp pistols.
Well gee why don't we do that with our rifles!
 
Brian,

Your thread is still going strong! The flags are telling us what they see, we have to interperate that into where the bullet is going. Not all conditions show up on the flags or they show too late for your last shot.


Quote:

because I’m just one of those dreaded keyboard shooters that constantly gets tar and feathered on shooting forums.

Landy

No need for tar and feathers. Those that get that come here asking for advice from the best shooters here, then tell them that can't be right. May not make a lot of sense sometimes, but, what works, works.


Cecil,

To be competitive, your .25 average group can't contain anything over about 3/8" max size. Even that, allows .0" for error.

Surely you can't believe physics is on duty full time in this game? If it was, why do my bullets drift a ring on dead calm days, sometimes. On other days a one mph breeze will just flutter the tails. Those days, don't matter if they are left, right, or multi-direction, hold center and shoot. If physics were in effect, the one mph breeze would have more affect than "dead calm" would it not?

Like I said, some things work, some dont, not always a good reason for either.

Ken
 
To be competitive, your .25 average group can't contain anything over about 3/8" max size. Even that, allows .0" for error.
I just "throw out" groups as big as 3/8 - there's always a reason for those big groups so I just don't pay any attention to them! Then I don't often see 1/8 groups so I end up with a rifle out of which every group is .25!

Surely you can't believe physics is on duty full time in this game? If it was, why do my bullets drift a ring on dead calm days, sometimes. On other days a one mph breeze will just flutter the tails. Those days, don't matter if they are left, right, or multi-direction, hold center and shoot. If physics were in effect, the one mph breeze would have more affect than "dead calm" would it not?
O, I know there are times when He puts His finger in on my shooting - and when it's dead calm it seems like a miracle! But I know if I just have faith, He will restore things to a rightful place and the wind will again blow my bullets as it was intelligently designed to do!
 
Ken

My whole point to the thread was that flags are too slow, or limited in what they CAN tell us at the time of firing a bullet. The all seem to have a range where they are more accurate, and therefore, tell us the truth most of the time. But when a shot goes out and you fired it as the flags were reading the same as the last four or five shots, this is the area where things are different and we can't explain it.

Have been testing a probe I built and so far what it is showing are a lot of small gusts that occur, in a pattern that gives the tails what you would call an AVERAGE reading. The tails will read the average of these gusts and give you an angle which is this average. Unless the pick up or let off is pretty large, the tails will not read it.

The probe is actually giving a much better indication of what is happening.
You would be amazed how many speed changes the tails either do not see, or take a while to see and give you a new angle.

Now I realize many things are happening in every foot of space I don't have a flag, 145 to be exact, but I am a lot more understanding of what is happening with my flags in the last two weeks of testing.

Smoke on each flag agrees with my probes and I would trust them long before trusting the tails again.

As far as having a rifle shoot itty bitty groups every time out, I would have to agree with Harry in that your ammo will like a particular condition each day. Finding this condition, for me, is the hard part.

Brian
 
Probe

I am very close, if not at the point, that I am happy with it's calibration.

But the southeast does not get the kind of wind I hear about in other regions.
They might need it tuned a little bit different.

Right now, a 15 mph gives a 90 degree indication, and a 7.5 mph gives 45 degrees, so it is quite linear. I have another set up that gives 45 degrees at 10 mph so it might be better for the hard blown areas.

I am going to make a video next weekend and post it on youtube so I will let you guys know when it is up.
 
Brian,

Sounds like you have a handle on what's happening. How many times has a shot gone out and you watch the flags turn just after your bullet went by? I would like to see what your probe looks like too. Keep us informed.

Ken
 
pacecil; O said:
Keep the faith Cecil. Someday when he puts his finger on your shooting, you may be able to keep up with the big dogs.

Until then, remember to average in those 3/8" groups too.

Ken
Click to expand...
 
Some testing today seem to reveal that the wind, as it is coming from one direction or another, looks to be wedge shaped. Stacked 3 probes with 20" between them height wise, and just watched. When the wind was from 3, they would react top to bottom about .25 to .5 second apart. Then from 9 it was opposite with reaction from bottom to top. Let ups had them respond in reverse order from each direction. With gusts it was more random. With a consistent push they all reacted at the same time.

It was gusty today before the rain came and a shootable condition was pretty rare, with fast switches and big speed changes. But we get what we get at a match since we don't go by Nascar rules, we race rain or shine.

How many matches have you been to where it looked to be pretty much unshootable, in that the wind was just crazy and you shot through what you could only to have the last five minutes of the relay be golden?

Or vice versa where the first five was gold and you wasted all that time on a few sighters and maybe got one row shot, just in time for the conditions to get bad?

Since we never know what is going to happen we need all the help we can get.

The probe looks as though it will help greatly but if conditions are bad, it will just confirm it.
 
I'm not a pro but will add an observation.
Our cottonwoods went off big time this year.
It was like it was snowing.
The wind was about 5-8mph.
It was like having thousands of flags at all heights
and yardage's.
It was my best wind class yet - you could see every reverse
up drafts - down drafts even mini tornados dancing around.
There is no way you could ever have it all covered.
You can pick up some of the conditions but never all between
you and the target.
Flags don't lie they just don't talk to each other;)
 
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