Dave Kiff's AMAZING Rem 700 Action Truing tool!

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skipkh

New member
I had to share this one... maybe some of you have seen it, but everyone I have talked to hasn't..

Dave Kiff of Pacific Tool & Guage has come up with a tool he calls Gen 2. It's a precision ground mandrel with a unique set of cutters on the end. You place 2 fitted bushings in a Rem 700 action, and the tool slides into them. You can then indicate at several points on the precision ground mandrel to make sure you've got the action running true to the bolt raceway. This tool faces the lug abutments AND the receiver face in one shot! Both absolutely square to the true centerline. This tool is an unbelievable timesaver, and I only wish it had been invented years ago.

My hat's off to Dave for this little gem. If you true a lot of Rem actions (or only a few) you will LOVE this tool!
 
It does work well... I have been using it for a while now.
 
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Is it possible or does anyone make

replacement bolts to the size that is needed once these actions are machined- reamed? It would be a great addition, eh?
 
I machine all my Rem 700's to .705" ID, using Gre-Tan's reamer. Dave has been making some pretty nice bolts, ground to whatever diameter you wish... I just ordered one from him, and I'll put up a thread about it once I've got it done.

I've sleeved bolts before, but that's no fun AT ALL :) If your going to go through the trouble of truing an action, I can't see using a loose-fitting bolt...
 
skipkh said:
I machine all my Rem 700's to .705" ID, using Gre-Tan's reamer. Dave has been making some pretty nice bolts, ground to whatever diameter you wish... I just ordered one from him, and I'll put up a thread about it once I've got it done.

I've sleeved bolts before, but that's no fun AT ALL :) If your going to go through the trouble of truing an action, I can't see using a loose-fitting bolt...
Click to expand...

Absolutely Fabulous! I agree with you. Sleeving Bolts gives one a crawly, sleezy feeling !:eek:
 
Don - I haven't seen Dave's tools like this yet - didn't know he was making something similar! I use his floating reamer holder, and it's a great little tool, so I suspect his reamers are as well :)
 
I think that Dave Manson was the first to come out with this tooling. I didn't know that Kiff was copying it.
 
Does it

Have thread chasing/truing capabilities? Daves that is.
I made a similar tool years ago to true up a rudder post housing
Drilled a hole in an old rudder post to accept a lathe bit with a set screw and reamed out the housing. Was wondering if that could be done with a 60* bit to clean up action threads.

Aloha, Les
 
Kiff or Manson

Kiff was making tools when Manson was a salesman before his days at Clymer. The mandrel action truing jig was made in the 50's by several tool makers. Kiff duplicated it years before Manson but quit making them until he was requested to do so again a few years back. There have been a number of variations over the years. I was told once that Kiff actually made them for Manson at one time. Kiff and Manson target different markets. Kiff is more directed toward the industry side of gun making and gunsmithing and Manson is more focused on the hobbiest and small gunsmith shop. This is reflected by the sizes of their respective shops as wellas their product lines.

Nat Lambeth
 
Nat,
I don't know the history behind Manson or Kiff. Fact is that you can take a good grinder operator and train them to grind any shape of reamer in a short while. While I suspect that both have ground many types of tooling in the past I doubt that either of them spend much time on the machine today. I know you are a follower of Kiff but I have tooling from Manson, Kiff, and Clymer and all make good products. I wouldn't hesitate to buy from any of the three of them. I do know that Manson operates out of Loon Lake and that they make reamers for the manufacturing community also. They are near Detroit and the automotive industry and that is a huge market. I guess my point is that I've gotten high quality custom reamers and short lead times from all of them and would consider any of them for my next order.
 
I would second that. I've used JGS, PT&G, and Clymer, and all seem to be precision products. Whether or not some of these guys still grind is open for debate - personally I'd be surprised if they didn't (an engineer who becomes a business man is still an engineer at heart and will persue that passion). Now, being able to reproduce a tool is one thing - you can train someone to do it. But innovating, and understand what the industry wants/needs is a whole 'nother animal. I think what really separates one vendor from another is not in their ability to teach employees to produce something, but in making sure that 'something' meets the highest quality standard each and every time! In addition, innovating new products instead of selling the same thing everyone else does. Not to suggest anyone being discussed is a 'follower' or a 'leader' in this regard, just suggesting the benchmark in which to appropriately judge their work :)
 
Manson Reamers is a

division of Loon Lake. The Company he started after he left Clymer. He went from the Garage to a building over by Grand Blanc. Myself, I won't buy a Clymer products of any kind.
 
I have Dave Kiff's Gen II Tool.

A while back I was on the phone with Dave Kiff discussing a special reamer for a customer. During the course of the conversation I mentioned that not every customer needs to have a full house action truing job done but many actions are so bad that I wouldn’t re-barrel them unless they were trued. Dave told me about his Gen II Action truing tooling and guaranteed that it would prove to produce more accurate results that many Gunsmiths can do with the traditional method. By traditional method we were talking about the GRE-TAN style or method. I bought a complete kit.

For the “test” I reamed a Remington 700 action with a .705 carbide action reamer, a reamer that I’ve used for many years with superior results. I cleaned the action and installed the appropriate bushings and proceeded to use the Gen II action truing tooling. After the action was trued using the GEN II tooling I cleaned the action, reinstalled the action reamer and put the action in my GRE-TAN style action truing jig and dialed it in using two Starrett .0001 Test Indicators one on each end of the reamer pilot to less than half a tenth of run out.

The results, the face ran out just under two tenths but slightly more than a tenth and a half. The locking lugs ran out just over a tenth but not quite a tenth and a half. The thread was cut .010 over sized and was cleaned up about 85%. I would say that that is better than many guys can do using a single point method. This was a customer’s action and I had his permission to test the tooling on it. All of the time being spent in set-up I re-cut the threads using a full profile laydown insert for 100% clean up, had to take another two thousandths or so. The cuts on the face and locking lugs were at two thousandths as I wanted to make a fair chip to get a good finish.

Did my single point work make the surfaces more accurate? This I can not say because of the built in variation changing between set ups. Did this action shoot better because of the single point work? This I can not say either because it was never tested in that condition. What I can say is now I offer either method to customers, the difference in the price for the work is $120. Either method gets either a new bolt and bolt handle or a sleeved bolt and re-located bolt handel so the timing is correct. A new oversized, ground locking lug .250 thick is part of the deal. Another thing that I can say is that I have never had a customer bring back an action truing / re-barrel /glass bedding job complaining about accuracy regardless of the method of action truing that they have requested. There is another thing that I can say and that is the day will come when a customer is not happy with his Gen II job because of something he read on the internet. I will cross that bridge when I get there and will make the customer happy by making things right by him


Hope and Change Sucks,
Nic.
 
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The Beauty of the Gen II tool …

… Is that the action facing cutter, action thread reamer and locking lug facing cutter all in one tool. This tool has a .500 pilot that uses the same bushings that the action bolt raceway reamer uses. Because everything is altogether once you get it started and the thread reamer is cutting minor diameter of the threads .010 oversized all of the operations are cut in alignment. The oversized tap is guided by the same bushings and is done in a second operation.

You do not have to ream the bolt raceway oversized to use the tooling. All that is needed is to select the proper bushings that the action requires. That step is also required if you choose to ream the bolt raceway oversized but then you have to change the bushing for ones that fit the reamed raceway.

The cost depends on the coatings and material that you select. Bushings are $35 each. You will need a good selection; I have two dozen of them in pairs in .0025 increments. The raceway reamer is about $300 in carbide. The Gen II reamer was a little less than $300 and the oversized tap was a touch less than $200.

This is not something that the hobby guy would want to invest in to do his or her personal actions. We have a business and needed a cost effective alternative to the traditional method of action truing so satisfy a narrow market segment. To the fellow that the $120 difference in cost of the re-barreling job is a deal maker it’s perfect. I get to do the re-barreling job, money that would have not been spent in our shop if I didn’t have this option.

Hope and Change Sucks,
Nic.
 
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