Carbon Fouling questions recent powders

[Old Gunner]

Hi there

I've come here mainly to pick your brains a bit if you don't mind.
I've been away from the shooting sports more or less for years, and though I've had the opportunity to do some small bore and air rifle shooting my centerfire rifles have been packed away along with my meager handloading gear and such.

When I first returned to handloading in the 80's after a similar long hiatus first thing I did was to give away all the powders I'd bought in the 60's and seventies to a young fellow who'd just started loading for his Jungle Carbine. These were fast powders more suitable for light loads in a short barreled rifle anyway and I then got all new supplies suitable for full length rifles in medium bore military calibers.
I had always prefered IMR powders and after trying some Winchester powders the fouling was so bad and hard to clean up with the older solvents I gave those Winchester powders away as well and stuck to the IMR powders exclusively.

The more recent crop of non IMR powders seem to not be living up to their earliest results. I haven't tried them as yet so I can only go by the experiances of those who have used them.

Carbon fouling seems to be a problem with most recent powder formulas.
Some of the IMR powders I've used left plenty of visible fouling but cleaned up quickly and easily with the old standby solvents. Winchester Olin and Military Ball powders in the same chamberings and velocity range proved very difficult to clean up even when more recent high powered solvents were used.

My rifles are by any measure antiques, and so they do not have the benefit of modern alloys used for many rifles manufactured in recent years, and rebarreling is not going to be feasible should they wear out. They'd end up as wall hangers should the bores be damaged by erosion or excessive mechanical wear from cleaning stubborn fouling.
Apparently some modern solvents can even eat away the bore, I saw one which warned that it dissolved molybdenum which is a common alloying element of many US military barrels.

Anyway I'd like to hear your experiances with the powders that are getting the most hype these days.
Reloader 15
Varget
Any Hodgdon Extreme powders
The most recent crop of IMR powders sold by Hodgdon, both Canadian IMR formula and Thales ADI substitutes sold as IMR.

The ingrediants seem to be basically the same as the older powders but manufacturing techniques and quality of raw materials can have an effect on the finished product.

Alliant Powders has the contract for recycling degraded single base naval gun and artillery propellants, and these were used to make Military Ball powders in the past, so I'm wondering just which of the Double Base powders use recycled nitrocellulose , and whether any single base powders are know to use them. Ordinarily single base powders never used recycled materials but in these days of massive pollution cleanups that may have changed.

 

[brian roberts]

Your Hodgdon "Extreme" and VihtaVouri........

"High Energy" propellants are double saturates, ie they are processed, then dried slightly, or completely, then saturated again w/nitroglycerin, then formed & dried. I'm not familiar w/the VV powders, yet; But, the newer powder technology is concentrating on getting better burn rates without the "spiking" or fast pressure acquisition, less erosion, less ambient temperature/pressure sensitivity, where hot days used to have a sometimes prohibitive pressure level on charges that were safe 20-30 degrees lower, when the loads were worked-up. If you do some careful reading(there are never "TOO many" new loading manuals), and call some of the companies concerned if there is something you don't understand. They have people there to talk all day long, that's what they get paid to do. Plus, there are some very experienced people on this site who, more than likely, have used just those powders you're curious about. Sorry I couldn't be more help, but I'm still shooting powders from the 60s and 80s myself , and haven't gotten into some of the newer powders you ask about. It may also help to specify a bit more on calibers, firearms, bullet weights, etc. to give those with the experience some more info, that usually gets better results. HTH

 

[mike in co]

it would appear to me, that you may be being influenced by text of which the authors maybe suspect as authorities in this field.
politley to much bs, very little fact.
clean carbon with a carbon cleaner, and metal fouling with a copper cleaner.
shoot your guns, enjoy them and take reasonable care...they will outlive all of us.

now, what does this have to do with benchrest shooting or extreme short range accuracy ?

have a good day,

mike in co

 

[Old Gunner]

it would appear to me, that you may be being influenced by text of which the authors maybe suspect as authorities in this field.
politley to much bs, very little fact.
clean carbon with a carbon cleaner, and metal fouling with a copper cleaner.
shoot your guns, enjoy them and take reasonable care...they will outlive all of us.

now, what does this have to do with benchrest shooting or extreme short range accuracy ?

have a good day,

mike in co

I load for my rifles using the techniques suggested by benchrest shooters of the old days and so far I've gotten a much higher degree of accuracy than these rifles are thought to be capable of. So I figure I'm on the right track.

Recently I ran across a site where a champion long range shooter had found that carbon build up that he had not been able to spot without a bore scope had been causing vertical dispersion of his groups after 450 rounds of ammo loaded with Varget. Thats the first I'd heard of any carbon fouling problem from a single base powder. Actually 450 rounds is quite a string before any shot stringing shows up.
The shooter in question doesn't seem to have had the problem with previous loads so what I'd like to determine is whether this is due to the powder itself and if so why.
Some posters on various forums had claimed that Varget and other Hodgdon extreme powders use Ethyl Centralite, a stabilizer used by most Military ball powders. The DNT and other stabilizers used by IMR and most single base powders are not usable with double base propellants that contain more than 20% Nitroglycerin , Modern double base rifle powders seldom contain more than 10% Nitro so these could use DNT rather than Centralite but I don't know whether they do or not. Hodgdon's site does not list Ethyl centralite among the ingrediants of the Powders made for them by Thales/ADI.

Two used rifles I've bought recently were heavily fouled by double base powders, one by military ball and the other by Winchester Olin double base, probably either 748 or 760, both of which I've used in the past and quit using because of heavy fouling. The solvents I've used in cleaning these worked far too slowly for my taste. I would hate to damage a bore while cleaning.
I find that common nail polish remover containing acetone began to break up the most stubborn deposits, I'd found that acetone is a recommended solvent for ethyl centralite and that EC mixed with Nitrocellulose is the basis for a family of high strength glues. So I'm thinking that EC or a similar ingrediant causes the carbon fouling to stick so hard because it acts like a heat cured glue.
I'm headed into town right now to try to find a good carbon removing solvent. Local stores aren't very well stocked these days since the best gunshops were closed down by the BATF a couple of years back.

The solvents I have on hand are
Balistol
Breakfree
Outers nitrosolvent
Sweets 7.62

These are good general purpose bore cleaners but have had little effect on hardened carbon fouling.
I gave Gumout carbueter cleaners a try and it had no effect at all.

Balistol generally will dissolve any type of fouling sooner or later, it works slow but as long as its in the bore it never quits working.

The amount of crud that came out after I applied the Acetone with a bore brush was startling. Nail polish remover contains water and other stuff so I don't want to use it if I can find a better solvent to break up the remaining deposits.

I've studied the works of Hatcher, Whelen, Farrow, and a slew of scientists whose life's work was formulating explosives and propellants. I'm not so sure about some of the modern Gunrag pundits, and advertising hype doesn't impress me.

Since there have been advances in the field of propellants in recent years its not unlikely that at least some of whats said about the newer powders may be true. But its always been a fact that products go downhill once they reach mass production. especially those that garner fat government contracts like RL 15.

I'd taken note that the US Military's newest sniper rifles specifed accuracy bore life has been reduced by one third from previous claims when it first was adopted. From 15,000 rounds to 10,000. Grouping ability has also been downgraded. This with a barrel of especially formulated Stainless Steel with Remington R-5 rifling with radiused corners designed to accomodate double base powders and avoid gas blowby and its resulting erosion.
The M118 Special Ball Cartridge accuracy specifications were loosened alarmingly and the new Long Range Special Ball using RL-15 is too new to judge and theres been no real feedback from the field as of yet.
When military contracts are concerned hype and propaganda plus the military's tendency to never admit to buying into the wrong product make judging the efficiency of RL-15 problematic.

So I figured the best place to start was to ask those who use these powders and keep close track of their group sizes and bore condition.
Vertical stringing has been noted in military rifles that used double base powders known for carbon fouling, so signs of this would be a good indicator of hard to spot carbon build up.

Most of my guns are from 80 to 94 years old and still in great shape, I'd like to ensure that they remain in great shape when they are twice that age, but I do intend to continue shooting them, and I'll always seek the most accurate taylored load for each.


PS
I will be doing some shooting at six hundred yards this summer, but I've always considered anything under three hundred to be close range. In any case its the powders I'm interested in and the problems of carbon fouling.

 

[Old Gunner]

"High Energy" propellants are double saturates, ie they are processed, then dried slightly, or completely, then saturated again w/nitroglycerin, then formed & dried. I'm not familiar w/the VV powders, yet; But, the newer powder technology is concentrating on getting better burn rates without the "spiking" or fast pressure acquisition, less erosion, less ambient temperature/pressure sensitivity, where hot days used to have a sometimes prohibitive pressure level on charges that were safe 20-30 degrees lower, when the loads were worked-up. If you do some careful reading(there are never "TOO many" new loading manuals), and call some of the companies concerned if there is something you don't understand. They have people there to talk all day long, that's what they get paid to do. Plus, there are some very experienced people on this site who, more than likely, have used just those powders you're curious about. Sorry I couldn't be more help, but I'm still shooting powders from the 60s and 80s myself , and haven't gotten into some of the newer powders you ask about. It may also help to specify a bit more on calibers, firearms, bullet weights, etc. to give those with the experience some more info, that usually gets better results. HTH

Thanks your feed back will be helpful. The Double Saturation process is something I'll look into.

 

[Woody]

carbon removal

Life's too short to remove carbon chemically. The good folks at Iosso make a paste and stout blue brushes that do a remarkable job.

 

[Old Gunner]

Life's too short to remove carbon chemically. The good folks at Iosso make a paste and stout blue brushes that do a remarkable job.

I doubt I'll find those locally, but I'll check for online stores that I can order these from. Thanks

 

[Boyd Allen]

There are a couple of relatively new products that you might want to try. Both were formulated by Terry Paul, Wipeout, and Carbout. This link should take you to a site that has information on both. I invite others to comment on there efficacy. I have found them both to be good, although since I do virtually all of my shooting with a 6PPC and most of that with high pressure loads of VV 133 I don't have much need for anything fancier than Butch's Bore Shine, patches and bronze brushes. As to cleaning for other powders, I have been helping with load development for a couple of magnums that are loaded with H1000 and Retumbo. For those we have used Wipeout, a foam bore cleaner, as well as Patchout with Accelerator. The bore scope shows good results.

http://www.sharpshootr.com/

 

[mike in co]

general motors has a product called top engine cleaner..TEC.
it should be in about a pint can( one once container is not the same), subaru has a similar product.
sorry my bad i should have mentioned them.
two wet patches should do the trick.

better living thru better chemistry( as in wet patches over hard scrubbing).

brass brushes never touch my br bbl's.....he said what ????

mike in co

 

[abintx]

Old Gunner ...

I'm interested in and the problems of carbon fouling.

Here's the solution for carbon fouling by two well known sources, and a compilation of suggestions I've collected along the way.

"I personally believe in the use of JB Bore Cleaner... I use it after every yardage. 3 to 5 tight fitting patches with JB will get the powder fouling out... I do a full cleaning before I use JB and also after I use JB, to make certain I've got all the JB out of the barrel. ... Tony Boyer"

Source: The Benchrest Shooting Primer, ON THE TOPIC OF BARRELS, by Tony Boyer, Page 349, upper left.
-----------------------------------
Krieger Barrels Inc,: Q&A

Q: Will a paste-type bore cleaner such as J.B. hurt a barrel during cleaning?

A: No. There is nothing that we can find that shows that it will harm the barrel provided you use a rod guide and refrain from exiting the muzzle.
--------------------------------------
Instructions received from Krieger along with my Krieger barrel: Break-In and Cleaning, Under Cleaning:

"Abrasive cleaners work well. They do not damage the bore, they clean all types of fouling (copper, powder, lead, plastic), and they have the added advantage of of polishing the throat both in 'break in' and later on when the throat begins to roughen again from the rounds fired. One national champion we know polishes the throats on his rifles every several hundred rounds or so with diamond paste to extend their accuracy life."
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Dip a patch in the JB container then fold it over and rub the sides together between finger and thumb until a small amount is spread around the center of the patch. If you get too much on a patch rub two patches together.

Short stroke down your barrel, scrub big just in front of the chamber well.

Since JB separates when it gets hot, stick your finger in and stir. Then scrape off as much as possible on the rim of the container. After that, use a patch to wipe off all of the JB that couldn't be scraped off your finger. That's the right amount for cleaning the bore.

J-B® Bore Cleaning Compound can be use with any cleaning solution.
--------------------------------------------------------------
To maintain accuracy: "Keep the throat clean!"

With fine match barrels, ***"Carbon fouling is the real culprit."***

Most people worry about copper; they should be worrying about carbon.

How do you find the carbon ring ???

1. Pull a NYLON bore brush back through the bore, from muzzle to breech.
2. You'll feel lots of resistance on the rod when it hits the carbon build-up.
3. That's where you need to scrub with Iosso or JB paste.

Hope this helps !!!

 

[Woody]

general motors has a product called top engine cleaner..TEC.
it should be in about a pint can( one once container is not the same), subaru has a similar product.
sorry my bad i should have mentioned them.
two wet patches should do the trick.

better living thru better chemistry( as in wet patches over hard scrubbing).

brass brushes never touch my br bbl's.....he said what ????

mike in co

If you're refering to my post, the Iosso blue brushes are a plastic of some sort and last longer then the black brushes. And I do use bronze brushes for general cleaning at matches like the vast majority of 100/200 yard competitve group BR shooters using 6mm PPCs.

 

[AVanGorder]

Have many of you tried this stuff?

 

[Old Gunner]

I had noticed a restriction of the bore just ahead of the throat on the rifle I'm restoring at this time.
I don't let a patch exit the muzzle unless I guide it out by hand then take the jag off and pull the rod back.
When scrubbing the bore after the solids are removed I use an undersized jag and a patch of a thick felt like material. This is to avoid pushing any remaining solids against the bore surface hard enough to cause wear. It also allows more solvent per patch and the fibers of the felt make a good scrubber for softened or liquified fouling.

I've seen both nylon and stainless steel brushes in the past but the few remaining gunshops within easy reach here don't carry them. I have ordered products through these shops in the past but it takes forever for them to put together enough orders to make it worth while. Generally when I special order a product the store owner orders several of the same. They aren't too well up on most products so they really don't know what to keep in stock.

They had never heard of JB bore paste when I asked about it several months back. I'd used it once years ago, but only a small amount that a friend had given me to try out.
The Enfield barrel I'd tried it on turned out to be too far gone to save. It had been heavily fouled by Cupro-nickel and had rusted out under the thick layer of fouling. When I finally got that metal fouling out the throat area was like a sponge. I still have the action from that rifle and I'm considering having a barrel turned for it in .32 Winchester Special. That cartridge being designed specifically for handloaders and the slow rifling twist suited to cast bullets and a wide range of powders including Black Powder. The slow twist may make finding a blank difficult. Its a fairly low pressure round so I might find a suitable blank for the .32 caliber Tennessee Po' Boy muzzle loader replicas, if they can be found in .321.

I'll put in an order for both Losso and JB paste.
I'd found an online pdf of a Parker Hale catalog of the 1940's that listed similar bore pastes for removing cupro-nickel fouling. I've also found the formulas for metal fouling removers used in the early days of smokeless powders, those are pretty harsh and great care must be used to avoid bore damage.

So my Shopping list will now include
JB Paste
Losso
Carb-Out
plastic brushes

Ill look into those products Boyd has suggested
And examine this site
http://www.sharpshootr.com/

Also I'll make a side trip to AutoZone to see what they have that might be useful.

 

[Boyd Allen]

I would avoid stainless brushes.

 

[mike in co]

ok...there is one use for a stainless brush in a rifle bbl. when you get a really dirty maybe lite rust in an old bbl...naval jelly and a stainless brush will work wonders in little time, other than that you should never put a stainless brush in a bbl.

look for a car dealership, any gm brand, or subaru...got to parts and ask for a top engine cleaner(tec). dont make this hard on yourself by trying to find stuff where it aint.

mike in co

 

[Old Gunner]

I had figured the stainless brushes were used to prevent extra strong copper solvents from eating away at the brush.
The old Parker Hale catalog listed annealed iron bore brushes, those had to be hard on bores.
Most Stainless steel alloys are much softer than steel, but old rifle barrel steels are sometimes much softer than modern steels.

Heres some info I found on ingrediants of Winchester powder

The ingredients listed for Bluedot and Winchester smokeless powders were: nitrocellulose, nitroglycerin,diphenyl-amine, ethyl centralite, rosin and poly-ester. The nitrocellulose andnitroglycerin are the explosive components; the diphenylamine and ethyl centralite are stabilizers

I'd seen it said elsewhere that Reloader 15 contained polyester.

With all that extra crap in the mixture no wonder Winchester powders leave so much fouling. If the centralite leaves a residue combined with uburned nitrocellulose and the residue of polyester and rosin that makes for a baked on layer that few solvents could easily remove without some brushing.
Polyester melts in gasoline. I've used gasoline before to scrub out bores choked with cosmoline and old fouling.

PS
I've gotten all but a thin skin near the throat out. Used both Acetone and Carburetor Cleaner then Outers and Balistol. The bore looks pretty good now.

 

[Big Al]

Whatever you do, do not try any of these products. They will end all of your fantasies about what works and what kinda of works real slow.

https://www.kgcoatings.com/index.php?_a=viewCat&catId=25

KG-1 for carbon and KG-12 for copper. I wish you all lived close to me, I have lots of quart bottles of the slow stuff to give away.

I have no financial interest in this company, other than buying from them.

End the myths and the search, this stuff just flatly works.

 

[SGS]

Carbon Fouling Questions

In your first post you mentioned: "Apparently some modern solvents can even eat away the bore, I saw one which warned that it dissolved molybdenum which is a common alloying element of many US military barrels. "

I can't be sure without knowing which cleaner posts this warning, but I suspect that it may be one of the new products intended for use by shooters using bullets coated with molybdenum disulfide ("Moly"). I have never heard of a cleaner having a specific effect on molybdenum as an alloying element in barrel steel.

Scott Roeder

 

[Old Gunner]

In your first post you mentioned: "Apparently some modern solvents can even eat away the bore, I saw one which warned that it dissolved molybdenum which is a common alloying element of many US military barrels. "

I can't be sure without knowing which cleaner posts this warning, but I suspect that it may be one of the new products intended for use by shooters using bullets coated with molybdenum disulfide ("Moly"). I have never heard of a cleaner having a specific effect on molybdenum as an alloying element in barrel steel.

Scott Roeder

Could be, though from the way it was phrazed they seemed concerned that leaving it in the bore too long would damage the barrel steel.

I'll back track and try to find that page again. I remember that the site dealt with target rifles.

PS
Here is how it was posted

WIPE-OUT RESTORES BARREL LIFE AND ACCURACY TO THESE GUNS. It is odourless and non-flammable. It contains a rust inhibitor, and will not stain hands or clothing. It is safe for all modern paint, gunstock finishes and steels.

However, it is not safe for varnish, shellac or old oil type finishes. It will remove them. It will dissolve brass, bronze, and copper. Most aluminium receivers and all aluminium pistol frames are safe with WIPE-OUT, but some will discolour to a dull grey. If you have any doubt try a test area where it will not be visible.

It contains no acid nor ammonia and CANNOT CAUSE RUST. It will not gum, or form solids in either the action or the barrel. It is safe for all barrel steels, both stainless and carbon steel. It will remove Molybdenum.

Since I've not used the type of bullet you speak of it never occurred to me that they meant it removed a Molybdenum fouling.

Molybdenum is used by many alloy steels so if its safe for both carbon and stainless steels its probably safe for the alloys containing molybdenum.

Hoppes No.9 has been known to strip away nickel plating, if the gun is coated with it then placed in a lambs wool lined pistol case. I'd read of this years ago. The lanolin in the wool greatly increasing its effect on the nickel and the enclosed case preventing it from drying out.

The strong formulas used to remove cupronickel fouling would if left standing in the bore, etch a ring at the interface of the fluid level and air. They used a tube stretched over the muzzle to maintain the level above the muzzle.

 

[tricrown]

Carb-Out

I’ve been using Carb-Out for better than a year of load testing and shooting 50+ multiple gun matches. Cleaning after every 30-40 round match. The routine starts with a couple wet patches of Carb-Out to get out the powder residue, then a Carb-Out wet black nylon brush, short stroking the throat area, another wet patch, and 3 dry patches. The black brush breaks down and leaves a black residue. So I’d like to find and try the blue brushes. That’s followed up with Wipe-Out Accelerator and then Patch-Out. Once home the guns get 3 dry patches, a patch or 2 of Accelerator, and then Wipe-Out Foam. After sitting over night they get patched dry and the gun is put in a sock. Sometimes, if the last dry patch isn’t clean, I’ll use Carb-Out after the overnight soaking. Maybe that leaves the molecular coating the instructions talk about.


My last order of Carb-Out came in an aerosol cans and is near the color of carbon, so its hard to tell by the patch how good its working and the aerosol can is wasteful. If I remember right the old stuff was near clear and smelled different. An email to Wipe-Out about the new spray cans and formula got no reply. So I’ve assumed they changed the formula for safety &/or financial reasons and it doesn’t work as well. Serves em right for not replying. To tell you the truth, it wouldn’t surprise me to find out that Accelerator is getting out more carbon than Carb-Out.

While I don’t mind pulling a nylon brush with chemical cleaner on it past the crown a few times, the thought of pulling a bronze brush with a paste is something I don’t want to do. Also the idea of only doing the throat with paste, then spending all the time getting the paste all out, while not treating the bore uniformly down its full length bugs me. But then after looking through a borescope, it looks like a used bore isn’t so uniform anyway.

We bore-sighted my barrels over winter and found the only one that had real carbon fouling was a Factory Varmint Class 223 8” Tikka that fired just Varget and N135. All the barrels and rifles were treated the same. Don’t know what to make of that.

So does Carb-Out work? Danged if I really know. But maybe because of convenience or out of habit, I’m stuck on Sharp Shoot R Precision Products for now.