Bore paste-- is it effective?

S

spfld

New member
Hi all. I have been using bore paste made by Break-Free in a new Douglas XX .270 cal. barrel. I did a "break-in" by shooting 2 rounds, scrubbing, repeat for several times over and keep seeing prominent streaks of copper @ the muzzle. Only 2 things remove the copper, Sweet's 7.62 or bore paste and the paste seems to do it faster. I have been through 2 bore paste sessions with about 30 strokes. These are counted as round trips not individual strokes. Anyhow I now wonder if this paste is effective or do I just keep applying the elbow grease? After a paste session I can shoot it about 10 to 12 times and the copper is back and accuracy drops off fast. It wants to stay in the 1/2" group range until the copper shows up. I have tried several brands of bullets with it liking some and not liking others accuracy-wise but that's to be expected. The one constant is the excess copper build up. Not having a bore scope I have seen what looks like chatter marks in the first inch in from the muzzle using a good penlight and a jewelers loup. The first 1 1/2" of the muzzle end of the barrel has been removed as Douglas recommends, and properly crowned. I have heard good & bad about fire lapping so have not really considered it. Starting to wonder if this barrel is just a bummer and nothing will save it. I do not want to wreck it with some drastic "fix". Can it be overdone with bore paste?
Thanks for any tips!!
 
spfld: First thing I do when I get a new chamber job is clean and JB the throat to get out the ruff machine marks, you will have to do a lot of scrubbing but I believe that is where the copper gets spread through the barrel. So I think if you try some JB's and keep going you can get the barrel back to where it should be. If you have a borescope, use it there a great help in keeping your barrel clean. Keep scrubbing!

Joe Salt
 
Bore paste is essential in my opinion. I have not used the one you mentioned. I had a barrel that seemed to copper quickly and my friend let me use a kit he got from Brownells that had compound in many grits. I used the higher numbered grits and stroked the barrel much like you mentioned, 25 strokes with 400, 600 and 1000. The improvement was impressive and undeniable, how ever I believe the same could be achieved over time by shooting and cleaning as you are doing now, though the throat would have more miles on it. If you continue to bore paste the barrel or use the method I used, use a stop on the rod and don't let the jag or patch exit the crown, this is important!!! Good luck with your new barrel!
 
For hunting rifles (like your 270??) sometimes shooters obsess about getting out all the copper fouling (not 80-90% but all of it). IMO (always suspect) many barrels on hunting rifles (at least on those I've owned) retain some copper fouling no matter the cleaning regimen. Your rifle shoots 1/2 MOA when "clean." Seems pretty good to me. If group size doubles with some retained fouling, that's still more than adequate for hunting. I'd try to strike a balance between acceptable accuracy and some retained fouling before you get "tennis elbow" from pushing that cleaning rod, or you damage the bore.

If you have "chatter marks" near the muzzle you won't get them out with bore paste, and if you get 1/2 MOA accuracy there's no need to try.

I hope you're using a rod guide??
 
Thanks for the replies folks. I can say yes to a muzzle stop and yes to bore guide. As far as hunting rifle accuracy goes this rifle is great for 10 shots or so. Way more than enough to get your deer, bear etc at any reasonable range. The barrel is a #4 contour 26" long. Guess it could be called a Beanfield rifle except my Beanfield is a Natural Gas pipeline and 500 to 700 yd. shots are possible. Still 10 shots are more than enough even in that situation. Problem is, after the allowed ten shots are fired it goes completely haywire with groups going into the 3" catagory. Also I monitor shot spacing to a minute between each of 5 shots then totally cool until the next 5 shots. I would enjoy some woodchuck hunting with the lighter bullets in summer and that's where I could have problems especially in an active field. Guess for now I'll keep the bore paste going and maybe get to 20 shots with accuracy. One more thing is that this barrel is HARD! A brand new PTG reamer was used for final chambering and I assisted my gunsmith in running the reamer in. We both agreed it was a tough barrel. I have worked with this man several times before and never experienced steel so tough on any brand of carbon steel barrel. When we blued the rifle the barrel came out a dark plumb color as opposed to the action a nice blue-black. Just wish I had access to a Rockwell hardness tester to satisfy my curiosity.
 
Just out of curiosity did you blue the action and barrel together and was the action polished all of bluing of action prior to bluing.
Stan
 
Barrel was polished to a higher degree than action (Spanish m48 Mauser). I wanted the action left at factory finish level. Blueing on the action was still near perfect and we just blued over it. Barrel & action were blued assembled. I wanted a Winchester Mod 70 effect with matte receiver and polished barrel. The only other time I have seen the purple/plumb color this barrel displayed was on a Winchester M-1917 Enfield action which I was told had a high nickel content in it's alloy. I am not a metalurgist so this theory might be fact or fancy, I dunno!
What I do know is all the carbon steel actions and barrels my gunsmith blues or re-blues do come out blue-black. I have helped him on many of these jobs. His shop is very well equipped and his blueing technique goes to extremes on the process.
 
The reason I ask this question is that I blue and I have not had any issues with barrels turning plumb and I have probably did at least 30 or more this last year.
Stan
 
Problem is, after the allowed ten shots are fired it goes completely haywire with groups going into the 3" catagory.

I had a German made .240 Weatherby, shot 60gr Sierra's, First 3 shots at 200yds, maybe an inch, 4th shot would be lucky to hit the target, 5th shot would just disappear. Solution to your problem? don't shoot more then 9 shots. Solution to my problem? never shoot more then 3, but the devastation on a groundhog made that very difficult!

First thing I do when I get a new chamber job is clean and JB the throat to get out the ruff machine marks, you will have to do a lot of scrubbing but I believe that is where the copper gets spread through the barrel.

I have done that for decades
 
Bill, I,m going to try your throat polish method. I do have some 600 grit paste I used for lapping tooling at the machine shop I used to work in and have been retired from for a few years. I also have diamond paste but it's really not suitable for soft steel, we used it on carbide die inserts only.
I will give it a few strokes with the 600 and then go with the regular bore paste. Still wishing I had a bore scope!!
 
I would use JB bore paste as a couple suggested if it does not improve I would contact the company where you bought the barrel and I think they will take care of your problem.
Stan
 
wvredneck said:
I would use JB bore paste as a couple suggested if it does not improve I would contact the company where you bought the barrel and I think they will take care of your problem.
Stan
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I have a problem returning the barrel to Douglas because I bought it from an individual and not from Douglas or a jobber. I have no receipt and the original Douglas makers marks were turned off of it when we chambered it. If I would have had access to a bore scope prior to buying it I would'nt have this little situation. I simply would not have bought it. Makes me wonder if the previous owner knew something he failed to tell me??? Having no recourse I will keep a good attitude and view this as a challenge and keep going with it, who knows it still may be that proverbial "Diamond in the Rough". After all, it still will give 10 or so accurate shots.
This Break Free Paste I have is so much like JB it even smells like it. I still have the remnants of a 20 year old can of JB. The grit is extremely fine in both of them.
 
10 shots...about an inch

Ain't so bad for a 270, especially if it's predictable. Swap barrels and you may get the worse end of the deal...
 
Wilbur said:
Ain't so bad for a 270, especially if it's predictable. Swap barrels and you may get the worse end of the deal...
Click to expand...

Agree! My loads are at or near top end according to whatever manual you may check and the barrel delivers two 5 shot groups with good accuracy. I like the .270, it's not a benchrest pedigreed cartridge and I surely do not expect that kind of performance. For me it sits comfortably in the middle between .22 & .30 cal.
With Sierra 150 gr spitzer bt I get 2,950 fps @ 12' from the muzzle. I am happy with that.
 
Wipeout for copper

I used to use a lot of J-B. Now I clean almost exclusively with Wipeout Accelerator and foam, which is vastly quicker. Sometimes I use Patchout at the range. These products get ALL the copper out of all my rifles. J-B is needed for carbon sometimes, but rarely. If you are using it for lapping, you'll be lapping a very long time. Even 600 grit is too fine to start with. I generally start with 320 grit, go to 600, and then finish with J-B Bore Polish. The polish is a bit more coarse than the paste. If you've got heavy machine marks in the leade you're going to have to start with 220 grit. You can buy a kit that includes 220, 320 and 600. It is a lifetime supply for most people.

I have been able to reduce break-in time of factory barrels, increase accuracy, and even lap out tight areas with this method. I make a guide out of a case with the rear drilled out and a brass tube epoxied into it. You can find brass tubes of various sizes at hobby stores. These guides will protect your chamber and throat very well while you are lapping. I hit the throat pretty heavy and the rest of the barrel less so. I do have a bore scope, which I highly recommend if you are going to try to lap a fine barrel.
 
spfld

I have a question......after you clean are you running an oil patch down the barrel to pre-lube before firing or are you firing from a dry bore?
 
Joe Salt said:
spfld: First thing I do when I get a new chamber job is clean and JB the throat to get out the ruff machine marks, you will have to do a lot of scrubbing but I believe that is where the copper gets spread through the barrel. So I think if you try some JB's and keep going you can get the barrel back to where it should be. If you have a borescope, use it there a great help in keeping your barrel clean. Keep scrubbing!

Joe Salt
Click to expand...

The makers of JB compound, United States Products, http://www.us-products.com/home.html also offer several other abrasives for gunsmith work. JB compound is actually a very soft abrasive and it will take forever to remove metal or polish with it, The aluminum oxide pastes USP offers are some more aggressive and if used sparing and wisely will do a better job of "super-finishing" rough barrel bores, just finished chamber necks, etc.

I know Ferris Pindell, and probably many others, used the USP AlOx pastes to finish lap bullet swaging dies.

Walt Fafta at USP also makes other gun cleaning and gun care products. They make gun related products like RemClean for Remington for example even though their primary business is to non gun related industries.

Later- As to lapping Douglas barrels, don't tell Tim Gardner. He takes pride in the fact his "dual button" rifeling process doesn't require manual lapping. And who knows, Tim recently set a new 1000 yard record with one of his double buttoned barrels and a 20 caliber chambering (a 20 x 47 of all things)!!
 
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Jerry

Tim did not set a IBS record he more less set a record to himself proving a 20 cal with his bullets could be competitive at a 1000yds in which he did that I seen several 3 inch groups shot with that 20 people just shake there heads when they see his target on the winners board.
Thanks for the positive comments.
Stan
 
It is hard to make a suggestion with out using a bore scope first,but i will say that if you are shooting over a dry bore maybe your problem. I think what you maybe seeing are not chatter but the movement marks of the button. I would mix up a 50/50 of Kroil and hoppies use after you get it clean, run a patch down and follow with a smaller path so it will leave a film. I only shoot single shots till it quits making copper, running over it doesn't do any good. I prefer Iosso for getting the copper out with a good bore cleaner. I just did a Douglas and it took nine single shots and it quit making copper and i used bore cleaner and Iosso between shots followed by the 50/50 mix and it was very successful……. jim
 
wvredneck said:
Jerry

Tim did not set a IBS record he more less set a record to himself proving a 20 cal with his bullets could be competitive at a 1000yds in which he did that I seen several 3 inch groups shot with that 20 people just shake there heads when they see his target on the winners board.
Thanks for the positive comments.
Stan
Click to expand...

Thanks for the correction Stanley. I had understood he did. You were there and I for sure wasn't. I have a hard time making 1000 yards on a 4-wheeler let alone shooting that far.
 
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