I guess I just extended my practice from my huning days.....300 was my main zero......all of my come ups were from that point....I never needed to worry about any distance less than 300, trajectory wise....anything from zero to around 350 was point and shoot....the point blank range...kinda....sorta......I just used 300 for all of my guns instead of 324 for one gun and 297 for the next.....all are the same, and just range and dial for all of the LR stuff.
As far as load development, I am with you...I do all of my initial testing at 100....I just have my impact point 2+ inches above my aim point. All of my longer range testing is either done at midnight or early/late in the day w/o wind.....I don't want my testing to be a wind reading exercise.
I guess we are kinda drifting off of the intial topic. I agree with most of what was said here.......it is all math and science....if you shoot xyz bullet at xxxx fps with abc environmental parameters...the number is 1234.....period. And yes garbage in/ garbage out......I just don't see getting all fired up about scope height.....I used a number that was 1/3 off and it only made less than 4" diff at 1000. Say you were only 1/10th off.....meaningless.
As far as load development, I am with you...I do all of my initial testing at 100....I just have my impact point 2+ inches above my aim point. All of my longer range testing is either done at midnight or early/late in the day w/o wind.....I don't want my testing to be a wind reading exercise.
I guess we are kinda drifting off of the intial topic. I agree with most of what was said here.......it is all math and science....if you shoot xyz bullet at xxxx fps with abc environmental parameters...the number is 1234.....period. And yes garbage in/ garbage out......I just don't see getting all fired up about scope height.....I used a number that was 1/3 off and it only made less than 4" diff at 1000. Say you were only 1/10th off.....meaningless.
C
cj Lamb
Guest
Ok guys i've heard alot about many things...and yes I have chrono'd my rounds, measured my centerline of bore to centerline of scope...I just know that there is something I'm missing...so far the only thing I might have a prob with is that I have a 20 moa scope base is that a big deal???Will it effect the numbers??
cj Lamb
Don't know what you're trying, but let me tell you this any of my rifles at 1000 yards takes at least 5 shots to settle down. I can shoot out to about 400 yards with a cold barrel an hit a woodchuck on any given day. But any further you better have settings for cold and warm barrel. So my best answer is if the first shot is off, put the cross hair back on the target and click to the hit. Forget the other stuff takes to long.
Joe Salt
Don't know what you're trying, but let me tell you this any of my rifles at 1000 yards takes at least 5 shots to settle down. I can shoot out to about 400 yards with a cold barrel an hit a woodchuck on any given day. But any further you better have settings for cold and warm barrel. So my best answer is if the first shot is off, put the cross hair back on the target and click to the hit. Forget the other stuff takes to long.
Joe Salt
C
Cheechako
Guest
cjlamb
Maybe it's as simple as you are not inputing the correct velocity. You're not using one of those Oehler chronographs, are you?
(Sorry goodgrouper, I couldn't help myself.)
ray
Maybe it's as simple as you are not inputing the correct velocity. You're not using one of those Oehler chronographs, are you?
(Sorry goodgrouper, I couldn't help myself.)
ray
I got to ask.....how far off, exactly, is "never on"? Are we talking 1/2 moa, or 5 moa?
hunting rifles
What about barometric pressure, temp, etc. that you enter in the program? If you are just using the default atmo conditions, or even the supposed default atmo conditions for your elevation, can cause things to be off a noticeable amount at distance.
If you have a Kestrel or similar gear to get a 'raw' uncorrected station pressure and reasonably close temperature value to plug in the program it helps a lot.
C
cj Lamb
Guest
Ok as far as been on for MOA the last chart I looked at said bullet drop at 700 yards would be 102" when in actuallity its only 15" give or take..ok then the particulars..250gr MK with velocity of 2920fps, BC of .587, SD of .313, Temp 32, elevation of 1040asl, not sure what pressure was this last time sorry, scope hieght of 2.7", zero range of 100 yds with increment of 100yds out to 1000yds, also scope is .125 per click or I guess 1/8 moa per click...Im sure I have forgotten something sorry about that just let me know....and THANKS for all your help...
Carl
Carl
cj...
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of MOA vs. inches for comeups. I gather by your post that you came up 15 'inches' on your scope from a 100 zero to hit your target @ 700yds? You do realize that the scope adjustment is in either 'minute of angle' or 'inches per hundred yards'? So if you came up 15 'inches' on your scope turret, at 700 yards each of those 'inches' (@ 100yds) is now worth ~7 inches? 15 'inches' x 7 = 105" of drop, or in other words, the projected ballistic comeups were almost dead on (with 1/2 moa). There really isn't any other way for things to be that grossly off. Most of what was discussed before was talking in terms of small errors, a few moa (3-4) at most. What you have is an entirely different problem.
Monte
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of MOA vs. inches for comeups. I gather by your post that you came up 15 'inches' on your scope from a 100 zero to hit your target @ 700yds? You do realize that the scope adjustment is in either 'minute of angle' or 'inches per hundred yards'? So if you came up 15 'inches' on your scope turret, at 700 yards each of those 'inches' (@ 100yds) is now worth ~7 inches? 15 'inches' x 7 = 105" of drop, or in other words, the projected ballistic comeups were almost dead on (with 1/2 moa). There really isn't any other way for things to be that grossly off. Most of what was discussed before was talking in terms of small errors, a few moa (3-4) at most. What you have is an entirely different problem.
Monte
C
Cheechako
Guest
Tod
A mistake I often make is to assume too much. Especially when posting on Internet Forums. You are right. A few questions up front would have resulted in 2 less pages of opinions, comments, and speculation.
Ray
A mistake I often make is to assume too much. Especially when posting on Internet Forums. You are right. A few questions up front would have resulted in 2 less pages of opinions, comments, and speculation.
Ray
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cj Lamb
Guest
I am sorry fella's I know I have alot to learn..but thank you for all your help...still foggy but hey I'll get it
Carl
Carl
Carl,
If you have any specific questions ask away. Pretty sure the group around here can help you out.
If you're at all interested in reading up on some of this stuff, you should definitely get ahold of a copy of Bryan Litz's book 'Applied Ballistics (for the long range shooter)'. It goes into a fair amount of detail on clicks, inches, moa, along with a lot of more esoteric topics (spin drift, etc.). Very easy writing style to read and comprehend, almost no math.
HTH,
Monte
If you have any specific questions ask away. Pretty sure the group around here can help you out.
If you're at all interested in reading up on some of this stuff, you should definitely get ahold of a copy of Bryan Litz's book 'Applied Ballistics (for the long range shooter)'. It goes into a fair amount of detail on clicks, inches, moa, along with a lot of more esoteric topics (spin drift, etc.). Very easy writing style to read and comprehend, almost no math.
HTH,
Monte
I don't mean to drag this out any more, but here is how I "teach" new shooters how this works.
Lets say you have a lazer beam....a strong one. Lets aim your beam to be dead on at 100 yards. your lazer burns a hole through your target. lets put another target at 200 yards, and 300, all the way out to 1000 yards so that the beam burns a hole dead on the "X". Now you have 10 targets with a hole burnt center X....
Now, lets tilt the the laser so it is 1 inch high at 100. it burns through and hits the 200 yard target. Now the laser does not bend...it goes dead strait. The hole on the 200 yard target is 2 inches above the x. At 300 it is 3 inches ect...all the way to 1000, where the laser is burning a hole 10 inches high.
Now, lets pretend that 1 moa and 1 inch are exatly the same at 100 yards. They are VERY close, but not exact. We moved the lazer 1 inch at 100 yards. Now since an inch and an MOA are the same (in our little experament) we can also say we moved our aim point 1 moa at 100 yards. But, as we look at our 1K target, it moved 10 inches, and at 700 yard it moved 7 inches, and 5 inches at 500, even though we only moved the Laser (cross hairs) 1 inch, or moa (at 100). So 1 moa is 1 inch at 100, 7 inches at 700, and 10 inches at 1000.
Now, let reverse this....lets say that the balistic chart says that your bullet will be exactly 200 INCHES low at 1000 yards with a 100 yard zero. We know that 10 inches at 1000 yards was the same as 1 inch, or moa, at 100 yards. Rember the lazer. Now, doing a little math in our head we know that if 10 inches at 1000 = 1 inch at 100, then 200 inches at 1000 would be the same as moving 20 inches (or MOA)at 100. (just divide by 10) So the "come ups" to hit dead on a 1000 yards is 20 MOA (or equal to 20 inches at 100 yards) to raise the bullet impact 200 inches on the 1000 yard target..
If you are working at 600 yards then divide by 6......400 yards, divide by 4...ect... to turn your inches into MOA.
God, as I read this it sounds so bone headed.....kinda hard to put on paper...but on the range it helps people understand.
Good luck
Lets say you have a lazer beam....a strong one. Lets aim your beam to be dead on at 100 yards. your lazer burns a hole through your target. lets put another target at 200 yards, and 300, all the way out to 1000 yards so that the beam burns a hole dead on the "X". Now you have 10 targets with a hole burnt center X....
Now, lets tilt the the laser so it is 1 inch high at 100. it burns through and hits the 200 yard target. Now the laser does not bend...it goes dead strait. The hole on the 200 yard target is 2 inches above the x. At 300 it is 3 inches ect...all the way to 1000, where the laser is burning a hole 10 inches high.
Now, lets pretend that 1 moa and 1 inch are exatly the same at 100 yards. They are VERY close, but not exact. We moved the lazer 1 inch at 100 yards. Now since an inch and an MOA are the same (in our little experament) we can also say we moved our aim point 1 moa at 100 yards. But, as we look at our 1K target, it moved 10 inches, and at 700 yard it moved 7 inches, and 5 inches at 500, even though we only moved the Laser (cross hairs) 1 inch, or moa (at 100). So 1 moa is 1 inch at 100, 7 inches at 700, and 10 inches at 1000.
Now, let reverse this....lets say that the balistic chart says that your bullet will be exactly 200 INCHES low at 1000 yards with a 100 yard zero. We know that 10 inches at 1000 yards was the same as 1 inch, or moa, at 100 yards. Rember the lazer. Now, doing a little math in our head we know that if 10 inches at 1000 = 1 inch at 100, then 200 inches at 1000 would be the same as moving 20 inches (or MOA)at 100. (just divide by 10) So the "come ups" to hit dead on a 1000 yards is 20 MOA (or equal to 20 inches at 100 yards) to raise the bullet impact 200 inches on the 1000 yard target..
If you are working at 600 yards then divide by 6......400 yards, divide by 4...ect... to turn your inches into MOA.
God, as I read this it sounds so bone headed.....kinda hard to put on paper...but on the range it helps people understand.
Good luck
C
cj Lamb
Guest
Ok have been gone for a bit but let me see if I get this right...I use a ballistics chart to figure bullet drop...lets say all the info is correct and it tells me my bullet will drop 96 inches at 500 yards. Now I have figured that at 500 yards my MOA is 5.235 and with 96 inches of drop my scope adjustment is 18.33 MOA of adjustment and then with .125 per click of scope adjustment I will have to change my elevation of 146.7 clicks..?am I right?
Carl
Carl
John Kielly
Shari's fan club
Carl,
I'd go the full 148 clicks just in case.
However, most of the more reliable tables I've used give you alternate drop figures in minutes of angle (example JBN on line: http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi). Just hit the calculate button at the bottom of the page to check out the output. The problem can be whether the tables are calculated with 1.047 as a MOA and whether your scope is calibrated with 1" or 1.047" as a MOA (or unfortunately in some cases, something entirely different).
All this begs the question. "What ballistic tables are you using?"
Some turn out to be more reliable than others; some have proven to be overly generous to the supplier's product.
John
I'd go the full 148 clicks just in case.
However, most of the more reliable tables I've used give you alternate drop figures in minutes of angle (example JBN on line: http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi). Just hit the calculate button at the bottom of the page to check out the output. The problem can be whether the tables are calculated with 1.047 as a MOA and whether your scope is calibrated with 1" or 1.047" as a MOA (or unfortunately in some cases, something entirely different).
All this begs the question. "What ballistic tables are you using?"
Some turn out to be more reliable than others; some have proven to be overly generous to the supplier's product.
John
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