Anyone who says they can tell a difference when charges vary a tenth of a grain.
- Thread starter Louis.J
- Start date
That differs somewhat from either of my proposals but I'm thinking about how your proposal would be the same thing. Gimme a minute....
So do you or not, think you can tell the difference in weighed charges vs loads that differed .2 within the same batch. Sounds like you can and that would be easier and quicker. All you gotta do is pick the one that has different charges?
So do you or not, think you can tell the difference in weighed charges vs loads that differed .2 within the same batch. Sounds like you can and that would be easier and quicker. All you gotta do is pick the one that has different charges?
Wilbur,
The reason I think most folks can't tell the OBVIOUS difference with a small change in load is because they are sloppy in some things they do. Notice that I said I would size the case, I would seat the bullets, I would have a tunned rifle and I would weigh the charges (oh, and by the way Wilbur, I do clean the necks of the cases). For those of you that don't know, Wilbur does not clean the outside of his cases... As Boyer once told him, "If I can see it, there's something there", simple and to the point.
It takes some real effort to get sizing and seating dies that are straight and consistent and match your reamer.
You've got to keep things clean, no crud inside dies, in shellholders, etc.
You've got to check your efforts as you load. Measure to make sure cases are sizing, measure to make sure seating is consistent.
If you drop powder I think you have to be very consistent in the stroke, dump a few charges everytime you start your load sequence and MOST important you have to have a real good eye for load so that you can set the powder measure to the exact center of the sweet spot. You have about .2grains on either side of a load point before the tolerance will send a few shots to hell. So unless you are as good at it as Jack Neary or Gary Ocock or some of the other terrific shooters out there, them I would suggest that you carefuly weigh the charges like I do.
So back to the rules. Yes, part of my assumption is that we have an ACCURATE baseline of loaded rounds. You can't mess with my scope and the loads are not trashed-up with inconsistency. If you load 29.8 grains in five cases it will not be a range of 29.5 to 30.4. It will be from vials that are marked 29.8 and believe me, they will be 29.8. As I said earlier I don't do that at matches anymore (I used to). I take what the Chargemaster gives me.
The purpose of this test is to see if a shooter can tell differences in groups where the load in one group is say 30.2 and the other group is made up of 30.4 rounds.
Starting to believe??
Larry
Alright then
If going up or down with powder doesn't change the point of impact I don't need to click the scope. Pretty sure I can trust you not to let me drive to Florida just to get duped by some means.
How could clicking the scope possibly affect the intent of the test?
Edited to add - I believe that if anybody can tell the difference it would be you but I remain skeptical.
If going up or down with powder doesn't change the point of impact I don't need to click the scope. Pretty sure I can trust you not to let me drive to Florida just to get duped by some means.
How could clicking the scope possibly affect the intent of the test?
Edited to add - I believe that if anybody can tell the difference it would be you but I remain skeptical.
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Pete Wass
Well-known member
What may be lost in the noise here
is folks who shoot group seem more interested in Aggs than an absolute tiny hole. My thought process runs, if I can give myself the very best ammo I am capable of producing, I may have a better chance. That, to me means diligently trying to make every round exactly the same and further, I don't think about matches in discussions such as this. The question is can one tell the difference, that is a different set of circumstances than shooting a match.
On the subjest of clean necks, I/we have found that the most consistent neck tension and most accurate seating depth, round to round, comes from necks that are polished inside; polished bright.
is folks who shoot group seem more interested in Aggs than an absolute tiny hole. My thought process runs, if I can give myself the very best ammo I am capable of producing, I may have a better chance. That, to me means diligently trying to make every round exactly the same and further, I don't think about matches in discussions such as this. The question is can one tell the difference, that is a different set of circumstances than shooting a match.
On the subjest of clean necks, I/we have found that the most consistent neck tension and most accurate seating depth, round to round, comes from necks that are polished inside; polished bright.
Tuning. From the outside.
The essence of tuning, short version.... the REASON for tuning, short version....... is to incrementally change the overall velocity, working up or down the scale to find the range where the rifle self-compensates for minor velocity changes in such a way that the slower bullets are launched higher or lobbed into the target to the same poi as the slower bullets. These points of convergence are often referred to as "nodes." They are yardage specific, in other words BULLET TRAJECTORIES CAN ONLY COINCIDE AT ONE YARDAGE.
I will call this "coarse tuning." (Others may feel free to call me an idiot)
These "nodes" may well be 1/2gr or more wide, I refuse to guess about "size" because I work with a lot of configurations. Nodes vary dramatically in size and effect. This width or "size of the node" is driven by factors which affect the "stiffness" of the barrel. (length, diameter, taper, profile, stock design, weight distribution, etc) and I've got systems that track up and down like a whale's tail. Others shoot nearly waterline allatime....
Now, "once you're "in the node" you can "fine tune" for hole shape, generally (but not exclusively) using seating depth and neck tension.
Actual poi changes at 100yds are the result of LARGE changes on velocity and in any case are not linear. In other words, going UP with the powder charge will often make poi go DOWN between nodes. Working up in .2gr increments (weighed) using an accurate rifle will result in a poi chart that, while rising in the main, will show waves like a tide chart.......I give Jim Borden and Doc Jackson credit for dubbing this effort "graphing the sine wave" but I may well be wrong.
I do know that IT WORKS
and that graphing loads on a horizontal line is telling.
I also know, I'M NO SHOOTER, I'm a backyard experimenter trying to learn to be a shooter. Thank you guys for sharing this info.
It's why I do what I do. And hope soon to do what you'se do
al
The essence of tuning, short version.... the REASON for tuning, short version....... is to incrementally change the overall velocity, working up or down the scale to find the range where the rifle self-compensates for minor velocity changes in such a way that the slower bullets are launched higher or lobbed into the target to the same poi as the slower bullets. These points of convergence are often referred to as "nodes." They are yardage specific, in other words BULLET TRAJECTORIES CAN ONLY COINCIDE AT ONE YARDAGE.
I will call this "coarse tuning." (Others may feel free to call me an idiot)
These "nodes" may well be 1/2gr or more wide, I refuse to guess about "size" because I work with a lot of configurations. Nodes vary dramatically in size and effect. This width or "size of the node" is driven by factors which affect the "stiffness" of the barrel. (length, diameter, taper, profile, stock design, weight distribution, etc) and I've got systems that track up and down like a whale's tail. Others shoot nearly waterline allatime....
Now, "once you're "in the node" you can "fine tune" for hole shape, generally (but not exclusively) using seating depth and neck tension.
Actual poi changes at 100yds are the result of LARGE changes on velocity and in any case are not linear. In other words, going UP with the powder charge will often make poi go DOWN between nodes. Working up in .2gr increments (weighed) using an accurate rifle will result in a poi chart that, while rising in the main, will show waves like a tide chart.......I give Jim Borden and Doc Jackson credit for dubbing this effort "graphing the sine wave" but I may well be wrong.
I do know that IT WORKS
and that graphing loads on a horizontal line is telling.I also know, I'M NO SHOOTER, I'm a backyard experimenter trying to learn to be a shooter. Thank you guys for sharing this info.
It's why I do what I do. And hope soon to do what you'se do
al
Hunter
Chasin' the Sunset
On the Way to the Big Experiment
Let me know when you're driving through Atlanta and I'll buy you a dog (or two), some chips and a Coke at the Varsity -- it won't be out of your way at all. I'd like to meet the cook and bottle washer.
Let me know when you're driving through Atlanta and I'll buy you a dog (or two), some chips and a Coke at the Varsity -- it won't be out of your way at all. I'd like to meet the cook and bottle washer.
Wilbur,
Skeptical is good. I have always admired how well you can read the wind, and it always amazed me how sloppy you are at loading (don't take offense old friend) and yet, how much you have won doing so. I'm kind of hoping to see you clean that old die of yours, wipe a couple of cases necks and come out to play again.
In fact, if you do decide to come down, we can alternate shooting the groups and I bet you can read the changes in load as well as anyone in this game.
Larry
Skeptical is good. I have always admired how well you can read the wind, and it always amazed me how sloppy you are at loading (don't take offense old friend) and yet, how much you have won doing so. I'm kind of hoping to see you clean that old die of yours, wipe a couple of cases necks and come out to play again.
In fact, if you do decide to come down, we can alternate shooting the groups and I bet you can read the changes in load as well as anyone in this game.
Larry
None taken
Larry - you gotta know that many of those pine boards I collected is the result of immense luck. Sloppy loading is my version of taking the old Winchester and whoopin' those fancy pants custom rigs. Given that there's absolutely no chance in the Winchester route, I load sloppy. Incidentally, that residue on my case necks can't be measured with normal mics. Even if it could they would likey measure the same.
Looking for an opportunity to travel and not interfere. Do you still live somewhere near Bradenton?
Larry - you gotta know that many of those pine boards I collected is the result of immense luck. Sloppy loading is my version of taking the old Winchester and whoopin' those fancy pants custom rigs. Given that there's absolutely no chance in the Winchester route, I load sloppy. Incidentally, that residue on my case necks can't be measured with normal mics. Even if it could they would likey measure the same.
Looking for an opportunity to travel and not interfere. Do you still live somewhere near Bradenton?
Sounds good!
Wilbur,
We have our match in Bradenton on the third weekend of Feb. If you want to, come a few days early (Billy and Bart may be at my range to play), and we can have a bit of a reunion.
We could do our experiment and then you could stay for the match and take the rust off your stuff. My range is only a few miles from the public range where the match is held. I'll be scoring the targets and for an entry fee I will score yours too.
As to the luck part, I would disagree. I say you won all that wood in spite of loading sloppy. I saw you win your last point to get into the SE Region HOF and there was no way anyone was going to get you. I also saw you at Rachel's score the targets, load and compete in a 3 relay match, I was humbled.
E-mail me or call to make the final details.
Larry
We have our match in Bradenton on the third weekend of Feb. If you want to, come a few days early (Billy and Bart may be at my range to play), and we can have a bit of a reunion.
We could do our experiment and then you could stay for the match and take the rust off your stuff. My range is only a few miles from the public range where the match is held. I'll be scoring the targets and for an entry fee I will score yours too.
As to the luck part, I would disagree. I say you won all that wood in spite of loading sloppy. I saw you win your last point to get into the SE Region HOF and there was no way anyone was going to get you. I also saw you at Rachel's score the targets, load and compete in a 3 relay match, I was humbled.
E-mail me or call to make the final details.
Larry
neck crud
Wilbur, I have tried to measure that crud with the same results as you. I have also noticed an increase of seating pressure over that of cleaned necks. I have decided I would rather start from as many knowns as possible and clean them as I don't trust that build up is consistent. I was in a nationals once and shooting decently and was not cleaning necks all week. And in the middle of the match I decided they "just needed it" and cleaned them up. I immediately noticed a reduction in tension and guess what? My next group was a spattergram. I imagine you can tune or adjust bushings for either condition but I sure won't make that mistake again. Scott
Wilbur, I have tried to measure that crud with the same results as you. I have also noticed an increase of seating pressure over that of cleaned necks. I have decided I would rather start from as many knowns as possible and clean them as I don't trust that build up is consistent. I was in a nationals once and shooting decently and was not cleaning necks all week. And in the middle of the match I decided they "just needed it" and cleaned them up. I immediately noticed a reduction in tension and guess what? My next group was a spattergram. I imagine you can tune or adjust bushings for either condition but I sure won't make that mistake again. Scott
Jim Bailey
Member
Wilbur and Jim
Wilbur,
As you can probably tell I don't pay too much attention to e-mail, etc. In any case it is hilariocosta1@aol.com . You have my phone number also but here goes (941)-928-2445.
Jim,
You are always welcome at my range, but while the test is going on I just want it to be Wilbur and me. I was even going to send Billy and Bart out to play golf while the test is going on.
Larry
Wilbur,
As you can probably tell I don't pay too much attention to e-mail, etc. In any case it is hilariocosta1@aol.com . You have my phone number also but here goes (941)-928-2445.
Jim,
You are always welcome at my range, but while the test is going on I just want it to be Wilbur and me. I was even going to send Billy and Bart out to play golf while the test is going on.
Larry
Jim Bailey
Member
Darn Larry,
I had plans to video the whole experiment and sell dvd's to all the registered users of Benchrest Central! Coulda made a killing!!
Oh well! Let's see - golf with Bart and Billy? Na, Bart will want to play 2 on 1, me being the 1. Been there, done that, didn't want no stinking T-shirt. Barely got out with my pants. Think Billy had been secretly practicing and I know Bart had!! Think Steve Robbins had been helping him again. Doubt if I'll make it down, but am sure planning on getting back to Dublin this year. I'll try to bring a jug of Scotlands finest legal aged spirits. Later, Jim
I had plans to video the whole experiment and sell dvd's to all the registered users of Benchrest Central! Coulda made a killing!!
Oh well! Let's see - golf with Bart and Billy? Na, Bart will want to play 2 on 1, me being the 1. Been there, done that, didn't want no stinking T-shirt. Barely got out with my pants. Think Billy had been secretly practicing and I know Bart had!! Think Steve Robbins had been helping him again. Doubt if I'll make it down, but am sure planning on getting back to Dublin this year. I'll try to bring a jug of Scotlands finest legal aged spirits. Later, Jim
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
And tickets to watch this cluster frigg are how much??
Billy, Bart and Golf....
Reading about sending them golfing reminds me of an occurance that happened back around 2007 at the supershoot. My daughter who was around seven at the time and I were walking around the gravel road at the supershoot and we happened upon Billy, Bart and Bill hitting golf balls. Well, they talked my daughter into rounding up the golf balls for a buck a trip. After about 4 or 5 trips, she looked up at me and said she was getting tired and wanted to go. Bart said "so your legs are getting tired of getting them"? My daughter looked up at him and said "only yours....I sure hope you shoot better than you play golf". I thought Billy and Bill were going to roll around on the ground laughing.
Hovis
Reading about sending them golfing reminds me of an occurance that happened back around 2007 at the supershoot. My daughter who was around seven at the time and I were walking around the gravel road at the supershoot and we happened upon Billy, Bart and Bill hitting golf balls. Well, they talked my daughter into rounding up the golf balls for a buck a trip. After about 4 or 5 trips, she looked up at me and said she was getting tired and wanted to go. Bart said "so your legs are getting tired of getting them"? My daughter looked up at him and said "only yours....I sure hope you shoot better than you play golf". I thought Billy and Bill were going to roll around on the ground laughing.
Hovis
