Anyone who says they can tell a difference when charges vary a tenth of a grain.

I don't want to get caught up in another "cluster" but I will put my two cents in.
1) Most people can't weigh to .1 grains.
2) Most People can't seat bullets exactly the same.
3) Most people can't tune a rifle properly or know when it is in tune.
4) Most people can't size brass correctly.
5) Most people can't read wind very well
This is not all I can say on the list. I could add that they may have crappy bullets, etc.
I will say that if you have these things right you can tell .1 grains easily.
I remember sitting next to Boyer (as he was kicking my ass) and he tells me he is going up .05 grains every group (he set a world record).
Guess what, he could tell.
Larry
 
L. Costa said:
I remember sitting next to Boyer...and he tells me he is going up .05 grains every group
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I assume he was weighing the powder? My scale doesn't measure in such fine increments; do you know what scale he was using? BTW, going up as the day progresses seems contrary to most of the advice I read here.
 
I don't know the brand of scale that he uses but his measures .02 grains, I've used it. I have a different brand that also measures that fine and it is pretty small also. When there is nothing unusual going on in the weather I use my RCBS machine, otherwise I confirm on the "fine" scale. It is amazing just how far off the RCBS can be when in the dump mode, I am convinced that the window opens up to accept more dumps.
As to going up during the day, there are many days where you stay the same, some days you trend down, some you trend up, and the most fun (not uncommon) you go up gently until about noon, come back down for a couple of hours and then go back up. I like those !!!
Larry
 
"Benchrest"

L. Costa said:
I

As to going up during the day, there are many days where you stay the same, some days you trend down, some you trend up, and the most fun (not uncommon) you go up gently until about noon, come back down for a couple of hours and then go back up. I like those !!!
Larry
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Boy, I wish I knew how to do that. As L.Costa relates,most people at the match are as confused as you are about Rifle tune/powder charge. Just listen to the talk back in the loading area after your relay.

You hear all kinds of comments from some confused folks. "I'm going up a click or two.", "I'm going down a click or two". "I made a big mess out of that group". "I got me a good one" "The gun is shooting",etc,etc. Could be kind of confusing to a new guy.

This is all part of the fun of Benchrest Competition. A few people are dedicated to perfecting competitive skills. The names are all too familiar. Me, I like the fun and the people. Don't care too much for practice.


Glenn
 
OK - offer remains on the table

Earlier offer stands......

OK - let's test it
I'll save up some money and go anywhere Southwest flies. We'll fix up some 6PPC cases so they all look alike and then load up some weighed charges and some deliberately 2 tenths spread. I'll pass 'em out so you won't know which it is. After shooting 15 groups with the .2 spread and 5 groups with the exact weight - you pick which ones that had the exact weight. If, for some reason, you can't pick the weighed groups we'll do it again with 3 tenths variance.
 
I would be of the opinion

that this can not be done at random. A person has to know what they are dealing with to eliminate happenstance. I wold suggest re-reading what Mr Costa has said, then set out to see if one can actually pull all of it off. Great ammo doesn't come from Happenstance, with any regularity, IMHO
 
I have one small technical question. Just how is Tony measuring powder so that he can make half tenth moves? Also, there is one observation that those who shoot with him can possibly shed some more light on. In studying a couple of videos that are available on YouTube, I have seen that he evidently takes several different loads to the line, and it seems that based on what he sees, testing on the sighter target, he selects one for record. This seems to me to be different than what I have generally seen in my limited experience, and a strategy worth imitating. Does anyone know how far apart these loads generally are?
 
Boyd Allen said:
I have one small technical question. Just how is Tony measuring powder so that he can make half tenth moves? Also, there is one observation that those who shoot with him can possibly shed some more light on. In studying a couple of videos that are available on YouTube, I have seen that he evidently takes several different loads to the line, and it seems that based on what he sees, testing on the sighter target, he selects one for record. This seems to me to be different than what I have generally seen in my limited experience, and a strategy worth imitating. Does anyone know how far apart these loads generally are?
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hey man, don't be so cheap!!!! Hire him for a session and get the information first hand.
 
Boyd Allen said:
In studying a couple of videos that are available on YouTube, I have seen that he evidently takes several different loads to the line, and it seems that based on what he sees, testing on the sighter target, he selects one for record. This seems to me to be different than what I have generally seen in my limited experience, and a strategy worth imitating. Does anyone know how far apart these loads generally are?
Click to expand...



The practice of taking several loads to the line has been around for a long time. Probably before Tony starting shooting Benchrest. my mentor started shooting Benchrest in the 70's. They were doing it then.

13 years ago I had a jones measure. The advice I got back then was to separate your loads(seven each) by a couple clicks on both sides of your best tune.(Using old T-Powder). pick the best load based on what you see on the sighter. If your best tune is already at maximum,then you obviously have to go backwards. Now,as you know, all this depends on what type powder you're using. I've learned that copying what you see some of the HOF shooters do,will not always work for you. In my opinion,it's best to figure it out yourself.

Dont know if this is related to what you're asking.



Glenn
 
Hold on now...

We're talking two animals here....

Some of us are talking powder weight as in tuning and others (myself at the least) are talking about weight variance within a batch of loads. None of us are talking happenstance - it either is or it ain't.

Alright then, we'll do it either way. We can also weigh exact loads and vary 2 tenths along the way. Shoot 3 aggs with your choice of weighed loads and one agg with weighed loads 2 tenths less or more - your choice. You pick the agg that was fired with the difference. You do the shooting of course.

Don't know what other "protocol" would be necessary but I'm listening. I just don't believe anyone can pick out a 2 tenths variance given a one in four choice.
 
I don't have my CF notebook with me

Wilbur said:
We're talking two animals here....

Some of us are talking powder weight as in tuning and others (myself at the least) are talking about weight variance within a batch of loads. None of us are talking happenstance - it either is or it ain't.

Alright then, we'll do it either way. We can also weigh exact loads and vary 2 tenths along the way. Shoot 3 aggs with your choice of weighed loads and one agg with weighed loads 2 tenths less or more - your choice. You pick the agg that was fired with the difference. You do the shooting of course.

Don't know what other "protocol" would be necessary but I'm listening. I just don't believe anyone can pick out a 2 tenths variance given a one in four choice.
Click to expand...




But, if I did, I could photo some of the pages for you to see. Every time I test loads I draw into the notebook what the groups look like. Sometimes I measure them, particularly if they are small. I have a number of pages that show what happened to the groups as I incerased the powder charge by one tenth, this after I had determined which seating depth that barrel liked best. When I tune I use, generally, one thenth difference in powder and .003" in seating depth. I don't move them at the same time, obviously. I have seen the difference of one tenth so many times that I can not help believing.

I use an AcuLab scale that reads in hundredths. I think it can be considered of Labratory Quality but am not sure. I have checked it hunderds of times againt a known weight so I am reasonably convinced that it is accurate enough to give me accurate tenth increments.

Personally, I don't really care what others believe. I know what I have been able to demonstrate to myself time after time for a goodly number of years now. I think a lot of folks believe in some pretty strange concepts that, by chance, most often, in my opinion, work well for them. I think that's just fine but believe they remain deluded, nevertheless, which is also fine if it is working for them, in the games they play. I, however, refuse to disregard what I have been able to prove to myself time after time after time. I don't have tens of barrels to use. When I buy one, I use it, if it's somewaht competative and find the very best load I can for it. I try to stay on top of it by checking the Kiss length regularly and to see that the load that use to work still does. I try to make each and every round I load with exacty the same measurements I have known to work. I pre-load and have for most of the years I have been shooting. Do I see my rifles go out of tune? Yes, I do see that, be it Centerfire, Rimfire or Air Rifles. All of em go out of tune. All one can hope for is that their tune stays good enough to stay ahead of the others who are also out of tune. Jackie Schmidt said it here a long time ago and I still agree, that 75% of all the rifles on the line are out of tune at any given time. One can almost always see it by looking at the posted targets. IMHO
 
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If I may, let me direct everyone's attention to the aggregate records section, and in particular, Gary Ocock's 5-5shot 200 yard, unlimited record. I am pretty sure that he shoots with thrown charges. In addition to being a fine shooter, evidently he is Superman with a powder measure. I am sure that others may have information about the details of other records that you could share.
http://nbrsa.org/sites/default/files/2012 World Records Group Shooting.pdf
 
Boyd Allen said:
If I may, let me direct everyone's attention to the aggregate records section, and in particular, Gary Ocock's 5-5shot 200 yard, unlimited record. I am pretty sure that he shoots with thrown charges. In addition to being a fine shooter, evidently he is Superman with a powder measure. I am sure that others may have information about the details of other records that you could share.
http://nbrsa.org/sites/default/files/2012 World Records Group Shooting.pdf
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Well, Mr. Allen with 4,418 more posts than Boyer, and 4,397 more posts than Costa, you should have the answer. Do you have any idea how many rounds they put down range a year? Dedication......dedication..............second place is the first loser..........you don't get there by talking about it...................and by the way Gary is a hell of a shooter also..............and you are well over 4,000 posts ahead of him also............
Later
Dave
 
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Right on point. Evidently I struck a nerve. It was not my intention to upset anyone. I thought that this was a discussion.
 
Wilbur,

I hate to do this but you are on, with some rules:

1) We do it at my range.
2) I will provide weighed charges in sealed bottles .2 apart which you will dump into cases that I have sized.
3) You can sample at random the bottles for weight on a scale that I will provide and which can read to .02 grains.
4) I seat the bullets.

Fair?

Let me know when.

Larry
 
Which way are we going - varying weights within a batch or varying weighed charges fired together - or both?

While we're makin' rules, I get to click in a few secret clicks of vertical adjustment between load changes - no more than say three clicks either direction I choose.

I can drive down there for a lot less than plane tickets....maybe....
 
Wilbur,

First of all I am a bit embarassed to accept this challenge; I don't want to sound like I am bragging (I ain't no Boyer and don't pretend to be). I simply have done this a few thousand times and want the folks that are learning this game to know it can be done and to get there.

To the rules:
Mixing up charges inside a group to me just means it is UNREADABLE so a resounding NO to that one.
My intention is that you load me up random 3 or 5 shot groups of 29.8, 30.0, 30.2, 30.4 and 30.6 which is the range that I mostly shoot with the N133 that I will provide in glass vials.
I will simply tell you when you have changed the load on me by at least .2 grains. If you want to make it interesting I will tell you how much to go up or down from an unknown load that shows vertical or wind sensitivity to get it to dot.
That's it. It meets the criteria of telling the difference in very small load changes.
Sounds fair??

Driving down sounds good, I ain't seen you in a while and it sure would be fun.
 
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