All 50 cal and smaller surplus brass must be destroyed,

Yes, part of what is said is true but misleading. Some remanufactured ammo was sold to the U.S. goverment and it went to Special Operations in Afghan. Problem has been corrected. We have been buying ammo from some overseas sources and some bad stuff was slipped in. This kinda of thing happens and seems to be directly linked to China every time. Some M4 Leupold sniper scopes that were fakes made their way to combat units. Fake computer chips from china have even made their way into out missile defense program. Since they were found and procedures put in place, we have had 100% success rate in intercepting missles during testing. People would have a cow if they really knew how much of this black market crap makes it into our market. BUT the ammo thing had nothing to do with this surplus brass issue. Just another misdirection from him. Typical liberal.

Hovis
 
never heard of the US forces using reloads....not even in practice ....let alone in theater.
Can any vets confirm?

I'm with you on this one (calling Hovis!!)...I think they use M855 steel tipped penetrator rounds and I know it is rejected upon inspection from time to time where us civilians line up to get it. I have never heard of them using reloaded brass either.

Pretty sure the bullets and primers both are sealed.

pf
<><
 
My last suggestion

would be for you to take a look at the goings on in the Senate hearings and pay a little closer attention to the news.

The Chinese seal their reloaded ammo, as do "most" companies. The brass for this latest shipment of ammo was traced right back to the shady company in Scottsdale Az. DOD Logistics has been outsourcing the manufacture and purchase of ammo for many, many years. This is how the department has remained in existence. They save the taxpayers Billions of dollars each year by purchasing the ammo from other countries. A large part are reloads. When I was in Nam, some of the ammo we were using, was reloaded ammo made the Philippines. And it has everything to do with the brass issue. The baloney that was started, was started by the company in Scottsdale Az. I'm not a liberal Hovis, and would appreciate it if you would refrain from using the word with my name.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
would be for you to take a look at the goings on in the Senate hearings and pay a little closer attention to the news.

The Chinese seal their reloaded ammo, as do "most" companies. The brass for this latest shipment of ammo was traced right back to the shady company in Scottsdale Az. DOD Logistics has been outsourcing the manufacture and purchase of ammo for many, many years. This is how the department has remained in existence. They save the taxpayers Billions of dollars each year by purchasing the ammo from other countries. A large part are reloads. When I was in Nam, some of the ammo we were using, was reloaded ammo made the Philippines. And it has everything to do with the brass issue. The baloney that was started, was started by the company in Scottsdale Az. I'm not a liberal Hovis, and would appreciate it if you would refrain from using the word with my name.


Any links to prove any of this?? :cool::cool:

Calling Hovis :D:D
 
During my time in the USMC and ever since then, the US military does not use reloaded ammo to my knowledge although that may have changed or have been different prior to my being in. This has to do with reliability in ALL guns. Dead Soldiers and Marines because of reloads would not sit well with a country that is not fond of seeing flag-drapped coffins with 18 year old farm kids in them.

According to a Maj. John Plaster(Highly decorated Army/LE Sniper instructor and author), most or all federal, state and local police units do not use reloads either. In their case is is about liability. Let a hostage get killed because a reload didnt go off and everybody would get sued and the antis would have more fodder to kill off guns and reloading. This is just whats written in his book, published in about 1993. Last I knew the "go to" military long distance round was factory loaded Federal Gold Medal Match rounds in .308 which used a 168 gr smk I believe.

Jamie
 
Sure Paul

Any links to prove any of this?? :cool::cool:

Calling Hovis :D:D

Check the senate hearings on AEY in 2008. They were convicted of wire fraud. They were purchasing substandard and fairly undetectable reloaded ammo from third world countries, being paid by the US government for the junk, and sending it to Afghanistan. This included ammo manufactured in China, using once fired brass, and bullets containing metals other than lead. During these hearings, there was also the conflict of interest hearing regarding the US purchases from IMI. The ruling handed down was approved by an overwhelming majority. "We are using this ammunition provided by Israel to kill Muslims". I have not seen, nor heard the final outcome of this as of yet. Senate hearings are viewable almost daily. At least when they are in session, and not on one of their breaks!!!
 
It is the policy of the DOD not to buy reloaded ammunition. The U.S./DOD had not bought any ammunition from overseas sources from around 1974 until 2004. The Army Ammunition Activity (Headquartered at Rock Island, Ill) activiated an additional mothballed production facility to operate under their command like Lake City.

Here is an article of interest.....

A Miami-based defense contractor has been charged with defrauding the federal government by delivering faulty, decades-old munitions to Afghan security forces.
Efraim Diveroli, the 22-year-old president and owner of AEY Inc., along with three company associates were indicted Friday by a federal grand jury in Miami on 71 counts related to the sale of Chinese ammunition through a Defense Department contract.
The House Oversight and Government Reform Committee plans to hold a hearing on the company's contracts on Tuesday.
AEY has faced public scrutiny since March 2008 when The New York Times reported that the company had shipped defective Chinese ammunition under a $298 million Defense contract. A subsequent investigation by Government Executive showed that AEY had been improperly designated as a small disadvantaged business less than a year before receiving the massive arms contract.
Also indicted were AEY Director and Vice President David Packouz; company agent Alexander Podrizki and Ralph Merrill, described as a business associate of Diveroli. Each of the four defendants is charged with one count of conspiracy and 35 counts of procurement fraud. Diveroli additionally is charged with 35 counts of making false statements to the Army. Each of the defendants faces a maximum of five years in prison per count if convicted of the conspiracy and false statement charges and 10 years per count for the procurement fraud charges.
The case against AEY is built largely on a series of e-mails sent among the defendants and the State Department.
Podrizki, AEY's agent stationed in Tirana, Albania, sent an e-mail in April 2007 to Packouz that included pictures of ammunition in containers with Chinese markings. Packouz responded that they would have to "get rid of" the crates with Chinese letters since the sale of Chinese products was prohibited under their contract.
In the following days, Diveroli sent several e-mails to the State Department asking if Chinese-manufactured ammunition could be used to fulfill their contract. Diveroli said the ammunition had been in the hands of an Albanian company for more than 20 years.
State officials told Diveroli that the transaction could not be authorized without a national security waiver from the president, which was unlikely.
Prosecutors also uncovered e-mails in which AEY officials discussed painting over metal cases and cleaning wooden munitions crates that included references to China. One e-mailed photo showed a person scraping the words "Made in China" off a crate.
The false statement charges stem from the fact that with each shipment, Diveroli falsely confirmed that the ammunition being supplied conformed to all aspects of the contract requirements. According to the indictment, on these certificates, Diveroli cited the military export and import company in Tirana, Albania, as the manufacturer and point of origin of the ammunition.
Howard Srebnick, an attorney for Diveroli, said the federal regulation cited in the indictment prohibits the delivery of ammunition acquired directly or indirectly from a Communist Chinese military company. He said Americans are not prohibited from selling Chinese-made ammo to the Army if it was acquired before the 1989 Chinese munitions embargo.
"The government knows Mr. Diveroli purchased the Chinese-made ammo from the Albanian government, which had acquired the ammo back in the '60s and '70s, before the Chinese embargo and before Mr. Diveroli was even born," Srebnick said. "Mr. Diveroli did not acquire the Chinese-made ammo, 'directly or indirectly,' from any Communist Chinese military company."
Srebnick said the government has deliberately misconstrued the regulations so the Army can avoid its multimillion-dollar contractual obligation to Diveroli. "Fortunately, a federal judge and jury, not a government bureaucrat, will decide who's right," he said.
In a statement, U.S. Attorney Alex Acosta said contractors are responsible for the safety and effectiveness of the weapons they provide.
"When these contractors intentionally cut corners to line their own pockets, they risk the safety and lives of our men and women in uniform," Acosta said. "Such callousness and disregard for the lives of our soldiers and our allies will not be tolerated, and will be vigorously prosecuted."
Anthony Mangione, special agent in charge of the Immigration and Customs Enforcement's Office of Investigations in Miami, said the indictment and arrest of the four men were the result of a three-year joint investigation conducted by the ICE counterproliferation investigations unit, Defense Criminal Investigative Service and the Army Criminal Investigation Command.
The Oversight Committee's hearing Tuesday will focus on AEY's performance and how it gained access to millions of dollars worth of government contracts. In particular, the committee will address whether parties involved in AEY's munitions procurements were identified on the State Department's Directorate of Defense Trade Controls watch lists as suspicious individuals or entities.
Diveroli and Packouz were invited to testify, but committee sources say they are not expected to appear given the recent indictments and arrests. The three remaining witnesses are Brig. Gen. William Phillips, commander of the Army's Picatinny Arsenal and Lethality Life Cycle Management Command; Mitchell Howell, executive director of the Defense Contract Management Agency's ground systems and munitions division; and Stephen Mull, acting assistant secretary for the State Department's Bureau of Political-Military Affairs.
On the eve of the hearing, the Oversight Committee released State documents, interview notes and e-mails suggesting that the U.S. ambassador to Albania attempted to cover up the Chinese origins of the AEY munitions.
Maj. Larry Harrison, chief of the embassy's Office of Defense Cooperation, told committee investigators that top Albanian officials, including then-defense minister Fatmir Mediu, were worried about a November 2007 visit by a New York Times reporter to an AEY packaging site in Tirana.
Mediu was reportedly concerned that the Times would document corruption in the Albanian Ministry of Defense. Prosecutors allege that AEY officials were removing Chinese ammunition from their original packaging at the airport facility before sending it to Afghanistan.
Harrison hastily arranged a late-night meeting with Mediu, John Withers II, the U.S. ambassador to Albania, Stephen Cristina, the embassy's deputy chief of mission and Patrick Leonard, the embassy's regional security officer. At the meeting, Harrison reportedly suggested that Mediu simply not allow the reporter access to the packaging facility, but the defense minister apparently had other ideas.
Mediu called the commanding general of the Albanian military forces and instructed him to remove all Chinese ammunition boxes from the site so "there would be nothing for the reporter to see," Harrison said. Withers reportedly agreed with the move, suggesting that it would help "alleviate the suspicion of wrongdoing," Harrison said.
Harrison told investigators that he disagreed with Mediu's decision and felt "very uncomfortable" at the meeting.
At the time of the meeting, AEY was already under federal investigation for illegal arms trafficking involving Chinese ammunition.
In March 2008, just one week before the Army suspended AEY from receiving any further contracts, Mediu resigned his post. News reports have suggested Mediu received kickbacks from AEY and Albania's chief prosecutor has accused him of "abuse of power" and making an "unfair profit." The Albanian Parliament recently lifted Mediu's immunity from prosecution.
Documents released by the committee Monday also suggested that top officials with the U.S. Embassy in Albania disregarded Harrison's advice to inform the committee about the November meeting. Committee investigators had asked the State Department to turn over all internal communication related to AEY and the Albanian government, but the embassy's response made no mention of the meeting.
"We concluded that the embassy had no proper advocacy role in a standard commercial dispute between a contractor and the host government, and we should only get involved if directed to do so through a formal front channel cable with DoD clearance," the embassy said in response to questions from the Oversight Committee.
In a June 23 letter to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, Committee Chairman Henry Waxman, D-Calif., requested interviews with a half dozen top embassy officials, including the three who attended the November meeting. He also has requested all documents related to AEY's contract that were created or possessed by the U.S. Embassy in Albania.


http://www.govexec.com/story_page.cfm?articleid=40306&ref=rellink

Facts need to be straight. Sorry it took me so long Paul. I'll tell you what's worse than this darn ammo...... FN firearms ... they should be ran out of business and out of the country.

Here are some current contractors....per article on military.com

When supplies were drawn down quickly last year, the Army had to turn to foreign suppliers to make "urgent buys." Ammunition was supplied by Poongsan Metals Corp. in South Korea, Israeli Military Industries, SNC of Canada and the Winchester division of Olin Corp. in East Alton, Ill.

There are other contractors also....just don't have the info handy...leaving for the "Shamrock" ... gotta go.

Oh....no ammo made by Isreal is being used overseas...it is being used CONUS for training. But who really cares....


FYI: Alliant is running Lake City now.

Hovis
 
Thanks for the article Hovis

It states what I have said. I didn't bother to cite the entire article as did you, because the short of it was sufficient. When you watch the live Senate hearings, you hear the actual language used by our representatives, not a watered down or modified version as we always get from the news media and publications.

Paul,
The best sources of information I can point you to are:
live senate hearings
Stanford University research center
Texas Tech research center
 
Great stuff...thanks for sharing and have a good time @ shamrock hovis!!



RS....I would rather hammer my toes than listen live politicians lips flap :D:D



pf
<><
 
Can't say I blame you

Great stuff...thanks for sharing and have a good time @ shamrock hovis!!



RS....I would rather hammer my toes than listen live politicians lips flap :D:D



pf
<><

Paul. You can access the Texas Tech website and follow the links for research. They compiled exhaustive research on the Viet Nam war. Probably the most fact finding research to date. They went as far as to compile numbers by religion. I for one, would never have believed there were Jehovahs Witnesses fighting side by side with me, knowing their beliefs.
 
Hovis,

when you have time, could you elaborate on FN....if you think it is over the line, pm / email. Just curious.

pf
<><
 
Paul. You can access the Texas Tech website and follow the links for research. They compiled exhaustive research on the Viet Nam war. Probably the most fact finding research to date. They went as far as to compile numbers by religion. I for one, would never have believed there were Jehovahs Witnesses fighting side by side with me, knowing their beliefs.

I have a soft spot for Tx Tech...Dad went to UT so I always root for the longhorns but love to watch the passing game from Tt.


Anyway, my gramp was a T-techy....he has great stories with his short time there B4 joining the navy and becoming a pilot during WWII. He called his instructors out all the time & ended up assisting most his mechanical classes but never got to graduate. He ended up taking over his fathers machine shop down this way where he retired about 10yrs ago. Getting close to 90. Lots of guys here would have loved him....he was a typical grumpy old machine shop owner but has softened up in his old age and we've become pretty close in the last decade.

Glad this got put to bed :)

pf
<><
 
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