a well accurized and blueprinted Rem 700 will shoot just as well as the custom actions. The same competitors who may be shooting one of the "custom" actions currently, I'll bet started out with a Rem 700 and upgraded from there and probably have a Rem 700 ready to go in a pinch if need be in their safe as a back-up. Alot of the overall outcome, has to do with the "nut behind the butt". Deep pockets and an understanding wife helps too
Very true...and be worth maybe 50 or 60% of a custom actioned gun if you deceide to sell.
Until Y2K, at the NBRSA Hunter Nationals, at Casper, Wyoming, I would have been in this camp - believing that custom actions were "sacring off" new shooters . . . then, after the show was over, upon perusing the equipment list I discovered that I was one of only three or four individuals who used rifles based upon non-custom actions - there were 106 competitors!
Randy,
The only way an accurized 700 is tolerable to shoot is with a Hart long bolt handle soldered on. Otherwise, they are a pain in the arse...imho
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R. G. Robinett
New member
Greg, via perfectly clear 20/10 hind-sight, I agree with you 100% - especially with your earlier comment regarding the relative depreciation!
In these parts, a "Trued" Rem. 700 scares the hell out of the average bloke . . . at best, they are worth about equal to an un-worked 700. RG
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Pete Wass
Well-known member
This is one fo the best - -
DEBATES we have had in a very long time on this forum. I thank one and all for their persistance and civility. let's keep it going!
All too many folks shy away from debates like this. Nobody is hurt by expressing how they feel and perceive things. It is when folks become like Chester A. Riley of you "The Life of Riley" fame or Archie Bunker that we get into trouble. Just keep an open mind and be willing to change same if credible information is offered.
DEBATES we have had in a very long time on this forum. I thank one and all for their persistance and civility. let's keep it going!
All too many folks shy away from debates like this. Nobody is hurt by expressing how they feel and perceive things. It is when folks become like Chester A. Riley of you "The Life of Riley" fame or Archie Bunker that we get into trouble. Just keep an open mind and be willing to change same if credible information is offered.
S
sakomeister
Guest
My conclusion
Well that brought some comments didnt it! Thanks to everyone for all your comments. I already own 3 trued remington actions, They are very good shooters smithed by some top name smiths---Kleinendorst , Green , etc. They are expensive to complete. My thought that it would be not that much more to just buy the custom action anyway, and have something with more resale value. We are going to see what Bob White has at his facility and probably purchase a used rifle chambered in 30 br on a custom action. I think this would save the wait time for the rifle components to be ordered and assembled by a backlogged gunsmith. I have decided to cocentrate on varmint for score as the class to use this on. I think that i would just shoot my 250 AI in hunter or varmint hunter class. Im not sure id like the 6 power scope rule though. Thanks, All John
Well that brought some comments didnt it! Thanks to everyone for all your comments. I already own 3 trued remington actions, They are very good shooters smithed by some top name smiths---Kleinendorst , Green , etc. They are expensive to complete. My thought that it would be not that much more to just buy the custom action anyway, and have something with more resale value. We are going to see what Bob White has at his facility and probably purchase a used rifle chambered in 30 br on a custom action. I think this would save the wait time for the rifle components to be ordered and assembled by a backlogged gunsmith. I have decided to cocentrate on varmint for score as the class to use this on. I think that i would just shoot my 250 AI in hunter or varmint hunter class. Im not sure id like the 6 power scope rule though. Thanks, All John
jackie schmidt
New member
Factory vs Custom
It is 2008. You would think we were past this arguement, but obviously not.
Here on Benchrest.com, we try to give good, sound advice on what it takes to be competitive in todays Arena. Shooters log onto this site to get the straight scoop, from shooters who actually do it. We owe it to shooters who are willing to spend their hard earned money on what is garnered here to give them a real world assessment of their options.
The thread took a wrong turn when the originiol poster said "hunter benchrest" in the thread title, and then started talking about a chambering that is not legal for that class.
He did correct this, though.
There is no doubt that you can build a very accurate Rifle using a good, sound, Factory Design. The Remington 700 is certainly this. Hundreds, if not thousands, of matches have been won in the past four decades using accurized Remington 700's, or one of it's cousins. (721, 600, xp-100, Model 7. etc).
But, most of this was before the proliferation of so many customs. Just go to our Classifieds right now. All of the major Supply houses have a multitude of Customs that can be shipped tomorrow.
And when you finally figure all of the cost in really bringing a Factory offerring up to Custom Standards, there is only about $400-$500 left on the table. And, you still have a Action that, barring your nostalgic feelings, is sub standard to a Custom.
So, in my opinion, if you are going to build a 30BR for Varmint for Score, (this is a VERY serious class), then why penalize yourself from the beginning. Trust me, after about your 3d match, you will be regretting spending all of that time and effort on a Factory offerring. You will then want to unload it in order to get a Custom,, and trust me, all of these shooters who are singing the praises of the Factory Action, (forgive me, Randy), probably aren't going to be lined up to take it off of your hands.
I sort of compare this to Hot Rodding, in particular, small block Chevys. We all remember how in love we were with the old "double hump" fuelie heads, and the "202"s. Gosh only knows how many of these were set on a flow bench, and ported to where they could make some serious power. Lots of races were won with a set of these sitting on top of a high winding small block.
But, today, you have a choice of a multitude of Aftermarket Heads, that, right out of the box, will outflow those highly modified factory heads, and are much more user friendly. On top of that, modern manufacturing methods have cut cost to where they actually end up being more economical than a set of the old modified heads..
Unless you are into some kind of Concourse Restoration, using these old heads, especially in a Competitive Racing Endevour, is rather silly.
All of us have been where you are now. I started out with a 40x back in '95, (I thought a Panda was something that lived in China), it did not take me long to see what it really took to be competitive. In the first of '97, I bought my first Farley, and that action is still my favorite, what I call my "go to" Rifle.
Benchrest is a serious game. While the cost are really not that prohibitive, when compared to things other crazys do, you do have to be willing to aquire the equipment that will be up to the task in todays Competitive Arena......jackie
It is 2008. You would think we were past this arguement, but obviously not.
Here on Benchrest.com, we try to give good, sound advice on what it takes to be competitive in todays Arena. Shooters log onto this site to get the straight scoop, from shooters who actually do it. We owe it to shooters who are willing to spend their hard earned money on what is garnered here to give them a real world assessment of their options.
The thread took a wrong turn when the originiol poster said "hunter benchrest" in the thread title, and then started talking about a chambering that is not legal for that class.
He did correct this, though.
There is no doubt that you can build a very accurate Rifle using a good, sound, Factory Design. The Remington 700 is certainly this. Hundreds, if not thousands, of matches have been won in the past four decades using accurized Remington 700's, or one of it's cousins. (721, 600, xp-100, Model 7. etc).
But, most of this was before the proliferation of so many customs. Just go to our Classifieds right now. All of the major Supply houses have a multitude of Customs that can be shipped tomorrow.
And when you finally figure all of the cost in really bringing a Factory offerring up to Custom Standards, there is only about $400-$500 left on the table. And, you still have a Action that, barring your nostalgic feelings, is sub standard to a Custom.
So, in my opinion, if you are going to build a 30BR for Varmint for Score, (this is a VERY serious class), then why penalize yourself from the beginning. Trust me, after about your 3d match, you will be regretting spending all of that time and effort on a Factory offerring. You will then want to unload it in order to get a Custom,, and trust me, all of these shooters who are singing the praises of the Factory Action, (forgive me, Randy), probably aren't going to be lined up to take it off of your hands.
I sort of compare this to Hot Rodding, in particular, small block Chevys. We all remember how in love we were with the old "double hump" fuelie heads, and the "202"s. Gosh only knows how many of these were set on a flow bench, and ported to where they could make some serious power. Lots of races were won with a set of these sitting on top of a high winding small block.
But, today, you have a choice of a multitude of Aftermarket Heads, that, right out of the box, will outflow those highly modified factory heads, and are much more user friendly. On top of that, modern manufacturing methods have cut cost to where they actually end up being more economical than a set of the old modified heads..
Unless you are into some kind of Concourse Restoration, using these old heads, especially in a Competitive Racing Endevour, is rather silly.
All of us have been where you are now. I started out with a 40x back in '95, (I thought a Panda was something that lived in China), it did not take me long to see what it really took to be competitive. In the first of '97, I bought my first Farley, and that action is still my favorite, what I call my "go to" Rifle.
Benchrest is a serious game. While the cost are really not that prohibitive, when compared to things other crazys do, you do have to be willing to aquire the equipment that will be up to the task in todays Competitive Arena......jackie
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S
sakomeister
Guest
Jackie
Hello, Jackie ,you are on the money with your statement. I made a mistake when I said "hunter " benchrest. I hope I didnt create too much confusion with my mistake, but also Im glad people did debate the topic. The more feedback I get the better. If I had thought of this 2-3 months ago I would just get a rifle built, but the reason I want a used one is that Ill actually get to shoot the whole season with it. I own a Diesel repair business and machine shop. I find the barrel chambering discussions very interesting and I have ordered a custom 6.5 X 55 AI reamer (short throat) from Dave Manson. I plan on a Douglas barrel and a type 96 action. (hunting rifle) Ive never chambered a barrel before so Im going to practice on some junk barrels before I try the new one. I hope to get as much response to the questions ill have when I do that as I have gotten here with this thread. Again Thanks to all
Hello, Jackie ,you are on the money with your statement. I made a mistake when I said "hunter " benchrest. I hope I didnt create too much confusion with my mistake, but also Im glad people did debate the topic. The more feedback I get the better. If I had thought of this 2-3 months ago I would just get a rifle built, but the reason I want a used one is that Ill actually get to shoot the whole season with it. I own a Diesel repair business and machine shop. I find the barrel chambering discussions very interesting and I have ordered a custom 6.5 X 55 AI reamer (short throat) from Dave Manson. I plan on a Douglas barrel and a type 96 action. (hunting rifle) Ive never chambered a barrel before so Im going to practice on some junk barrels before I try the new one. I hope to get as much response to the questions ill have when I do that as I have gotten here with this thread. Again Thanks to all
Dick Grosbier
Club Coordinator
Or until I get a chance to sell it.
D
Dale Madeira
Guest
A Few Thoughts On This Hunter Issue
Hello all,
As a former IBS Hunter Class shooter I would just like to mention a few reasons that I don't compete much anymore. These rule changes over the years seemed to me to turn Hunter and Varmint Hunter into nothing more than Varmint for Score class with a less powerful powerful scope.
A You no longer need a working magazine, most rifles we use to hunt have them.
B. You no longer need a working safety, something I certainly wouldn't want to take hunting.
C. With the allowance of Custom Actions you have taken the weekend warrior aspect out, I truly enjoyed beating my head against the wall to keep Remington 788's weight legal with working magazines, safety,and the extra heavy bolt plugs not to mention the famous rear one screw scope mount.
D. Heck, you cant's even act like your a tuff guy who can take the recoil, everyone in VFS shoots 30's now!
E. I was planning on returning to shooting this year but I am not sure what to expect with the new barrel tuner deal I don't plan on adding one, I know that for sure.
None of these points were meant to question any rule changes that were voted in by our loyal members, God knows I haven't been around to vote.
I just wanted to express why I lost interest myself, thinking it may be interest to someone, I know if I was starting from scratch, to the Gentlemen that started this thread, I would go directly to VFS class, more competitors, basically the same gun, less equipment to carry to the bench, a bit friendlier to shoot as well.
PS Mr. Robinette
Although you have finally turned to the Dark Side of custom actions along with Mr Mckee,
I would like to express my gratitude to all you have done for our beloved sport, the 30 cal and mostly, thank you for those dymanite BIBs all those years ago they are a major part in the accuracy I achieved in Y2K in that old 788! Geeze I think I still have some 125's left!
Dale Madeira
Hello all,
As a former IBS Hunter Class shooter I would just like to mention a few reasons that I don't compete much anymore. These rule changes over the years seemed to me to turn Hunter and Varmint Hunter into nothing more than Varmint for Score class with a less powerful powerful scope.
A You no longer need a working magazine, most rifles we use to hunt have them.
B. You no longer need a working safety, something I certainly wouldn't want to take hunting.
C. With the allowance of Custom Actions you have taken the weekend warrior aspect out, I truly enjoyed beating my head against the wall to keep Remington 788's weight legal with working magazines, safety,and the extra heavy bolt plugs not to mention the famous rear one screw scope mount.
D. Heck, you cant's even act like your a tuff guy who can take the recoil, everyone in VFS shoots 30's now!
E. I was planning on returning to shooting this year but I am not sure what to expect with the new barrel tuner deal I don't plan on adding one, I know that for sure.
None of these points were meant to question any rule changes that were voted in by our loyal members, God knows I haven't been around to vote.
I just wanted to express why I lost interest myself, thinking it may be interest to someone, I know if I was starting from scratch, to the Gentlemen that started this thread, I would go directly to VFS class, more competitors, basically the same gun, less equipment to carry to the bench, a bit friendlier to shoot as well.
PS Mr. Robinette
Although you have finally turned to the Dark Side of custom actions along with Mr Mckee,
I would like to express my gratitude to all you have done for our beloved sport, the 30 cal and mostly, thank you for those dymanite BIBs all those years ago they are a major part in the accuracy I achieved in Y2K in that old 788! Geeze I think I still have some 125's left!
Dale Madeira
jackie schmidt
New member
Dale
In the natural evolution of things, HBR has evolved into a highly specialized endevour that requires equipment that, by the very nature of the needs of the competition, is rendered rather useless for any thing except for the purpose for which it was built. To put it plainly, they are all out Benchrest Rifles.
There are only really two defining characteristics that still mean anything in HBR. One is the 6x scope, the other is the minimum case capacity........jackie
In the natural evolution of things, HBR has evolved into a highly specialized endevour that requires equipment that, by the very nature of the needs of the competition, is rendered rather useless for any thing except for the purpose for which it was built. To put it plainly, they are all out Benchrest Rifles.
There are only really two defining characteristics that still mean anything in HBR. One is the 6x scope, the other is the minimum case capacity........jackie
The other big factor in HBR class is the 2.25" fore end width rule. The handling characteristics of these stocks versus the 3" fore end stocks are very, very different. Plus, the HBR guns are limited to 10 lbs. total weight.
Given the choice of shooting a 100 yd. HBR tournament with either a 3" fore end or a 36X scope on my HBR gun...... I'd opt the wider stock every time over the increased magnification.
The same scenario at 200 yd. would find me reversing my choice.
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Randy...
and then there is the question, trued by whom and what did they do to it? take care
Greg, with perfectly clear 20/10 hind-sight, I agree with you 100% - especially with your earlier comment regarding the relative depreciation!
In these parts, a "Trued" Rem. 700 scares the hell out of the average bloke . . . at best, they are worth about equal to an un-worked 700. RG
and then there is the question, trued by whom and what did they do to it? take care
R. G. Robinett
New member
Greg, again, you score some points - all "trued" actions are not equal - I've seen some real dogs. On the other hand, I've purcahsed several custom actions which, in order to get them shooting properly, required reworking - issues ranging from timing to sloppy bolt fit.
Dale, you are very kind - I held out, shooting the old reliable 700s as long as it made sense. But, after nabbing the 200 and Grand Aggs. in Casper, then seeing that I was one of precious few suffering the handicap of the rem. action, I made the switch. Only a few die-hards were shooting Rems. Custom actions weren't scaring anyone off - at that time, it was the largest attendance at the NBRSA Hunter Nationals.
The largest benifit I see whith the custom actions is SPEED - often, for a holding condition (30 seconds or so), I can run all five record bulls without wasting time looking through the spotter - even with the nifty Farley bolt-handle conversions, the Rem. 700s won't accommodate THAT!
Seriously, for several seasons, I'd take one of the 700s to a tournament, just to "prove" that they'd still compete . . and they did fairly well. BUT, I always felt that I had given up valuable points or, Xes due to not being able to shoot follow-up shots as fast as my customed actions allow (sometimes, it pays to run 'em at 100 too). So, I maintain, that the difference is not precision potential, but rather the user-friendly features of a good custom action, which make shooting EASIER to master.Worth repeating, I believe that Frank, while campaigning his 788s, displayed, beyond any doubt, the narrow precision gap between TRUED actions and customs. The caveat being Mr. McKee's unworldly abilities - but isn't THAT the point - Frank DID prove that percision is precision . . . but once he had all of the pieces of his "free" Kodiak actioned Hunter Rifle assembled, even Frank probably ENJOYS the relative ease of operation, the good looks and satisfaction of owning the best.
At one time, I lamented (even resisted) the loss of the "operable" safety, magazine, etc., right through the custom action rules - but went along with the majority of my peers - my enjoyment of shooting Hunter Class has only grown.
RG
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Dick Grosbier
Club Coordinator
Frank has a couple of customs and if my memory serves me correctly he told me he still has 6 or 7 model 788's he shoots from time to time.
BTW Gary Long has either one or two Hart actions he shoots plus several 700's.
I am told Vince Pastorella does not think custom actions should have ever been let into Hunter class so sticks with his Remingtons.
Dick,
Vince Pastorella...now there is one guy(among some others) that knows how to true a Remington action. I've shot Pete's Rem...I really like my Kodiak!!
D
Dale Madeira
Guest
Randy
I totally agree with you on the speed and ease of shooting of the custom actions and the fact many feel they shoot better with them in conditions. I owned a few once , believe it or not! That was back when you bought a Custom Action and still had to blueprint it, my how things have changed! Once I started shooting Hunter I became a picker even at 200 with a death grip on the gun, reprogrammed to shoot a 7 ounce trigger, so speed is something that I probably wouldn't put on my list of 'Custom Phobia'!
I am not sure however that the large amount of shooters with Remingtons at the NBRSA Nationals that seemed to decline shortly after wasn't a by product of some of the things I posted earlier, basically something you reassured with your post. I can understand the drive to create a better mousetrap, that is just good old competetive human nature. I am just not sure it helped in all classes. In your case I believe NBRSA doesn't shoot VFS? That may be the difference. I just know in my area checking match results recently there seems to be 1- 3 hunter shooters at each match when I stopped shooting a bit ago there were 8-10 just about everywhere I shot in Hunter.
Once again however I think it is more evident on the IBS side where we also shoot VFS and the likeness of our guns in these classes the cost comparison and the fun of rigging (Junk) for weekend gunsmiths like me!
Anyway enough is enough on this subject I hope to run into you and a few of my old shooting friends out there this year.
Remember watch those tails.
Dale
I totally agree with you on the speed and ease of shooting of the custom actions and the fact many feel they shoot better with them in conditions. I owned a few once , believe it or not! That was back when you bought a Custom Action and still had to blueprint it, my how things have changed! Once I started shooting Hunter I became a picker even at 200 with a death grip on the gun, reprogrammed to shoot a 7 ounce trigger, so speed is something that I probably wouldn't put on my list of 'Custom Phobia'!
I am not sure however that the large amount of shooters with Remingtons at the NBRSA Nationals that seemed to decline shortly after wasn't a by product of some of the things I posted earlier, basically something you reassured with your post. I can understand the drive to create a better mousetrap, that is just good old competetive human nature. I am just not sure it helped in all classes. In your case I believe NBRSA doesn't shoot VFS? That may be the difference. I just know in my area checking match results recently there seems to be 1- 3 hunter shooters at each match when I stopped shooting a bit ago there were 8-10 just about everywhere I shot in Hunter.
Once again however I think it is more evident on the IBS side where we also shoot VFS and the likeness of our guns in these classes the cost comparison and the fun of rigging (Junk) for weekend gunsmiths like me!
Anyway enough is enough on this subject I hope to run into you and a few of my old shooting friends out there this year.
Remember watch those tails.
Dale
Pete Wass
Well-known member
It's interesting - -
A couple of guys who have been strictly VFS shooters tried shooting a hunter gun @ last years Bud and both of them ended up buying a hunter rifle and are going to shoot them this year. I believe the Two Gun event they did this for , if promoted by IBS, would bring more people into the 6 power ranks again.
Form my view, people want to shoot 250's and find a sense of accomplishment from doing it. It is pretty easy to do with a VFS rifle today. It still isn't that easy to do with a 6 power rifle but as those two individuals found out, is possible and is possible to shoot them well and have fun doing it.
New games may be the answer, not going back to the past. Peronally I think good Remingtons are capable of winning matches. It is done by some of those who haven't been mentioned yet but it is just more pleasureable to use custom actioned rifles.
A couple of guys who have been strictly VFS shooters tried shooting a hunter gun @ last years Bud and both of them ended up buying a hunter rifle and are going to shoot them this year. I believe the Two Gun event they did this for , if promoted by IBS, would bring more people into the 6 power ranks again.
Form my view, people want to shoot 250's and find a sense of accomplishment from doing it. It is pretty easy to do with a VFS rifle today. It still isn't that easy to do with a 6 power rifle but as those two individuals found out, is possible and is possible to shoot them well and have fun doing it.
New games may be the answer, not going back to the past. Peronally I think good Remingtons are capable of winning matches. It is done by some of those who haven't been mentioned yet but it is just more pleasureable to use custom actioned rifles.
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Man I LOVE this post
HOW MANY times have I read on this board about how Bench Rest has gotten "boring", how "the innovative days are over" and how creativity has been all but eliminated..........stifled.......
And then you look over the last 6mo.
Yup, the whole game is static.
LOL
al