A list of importance:

[Steve Krause]

Reading Conditions

This is a great thread. Lots of good information that people can use.

I think someone hit it right when mentioning the SKILL needed to compete to win. All else equal, you gotta know how to handle the rifle, setup properly and adapt to the conditions. That brings me to what I think is one of the most important....reading the wind. If you miss that velocity drop or a subtle switch or maybe mirage momentarily got clouded over, you are done. That magic bullet, lapped barrel, in-line seater, etc might help you on the next shot but you just dropped a point that others prob did not. You gotta have your head in the game ALL THE TIME. That's where the will and determination to win comes in.
Some of this of course you learn over time but a certain amount is whether you have the 'gift'. Just like sports, some people are born with it , others will develop it and then there are also rans.

It is one of my pet peaves when I read gun articles about wringing out the accuracy in a gun using the 5 five-shot group test. When is the last time you saw one of them mention shooting those groups with wind flags? Not a lot I suspect. I'll give a shout out to a Layne Simpson article he wrote a few years back (found in a Shooting Times mag at the deer cabin). He was testing 22LR match ammo by lots to see its lot to lot consistency. He mentioned that "if the flags started to move too much, the test was postponed to another day". He had to cause 40 gr pills have a BC of .140 and a slight breeze opens up the best of groups.

There are lots of guns out there that shoot in the 1's and 2's. They are competitive. But every shooter finds out real quick that if you don't pay attention to an 'active 'condition, that custom gun just got .300" added to the group or you landed in the 9-ring.....cause you miss-read the wind.

And classify me as "an old school simple equipment guy" , not a gadget guy. (small block Chevy's RULE). Lots of shooters get out in the weeds too much. Look what's winning and go with that. Don't have to re-invent the wheel.

 

[Dennis L Martin]

Serious question Dennis.... you say "actions".

Since 99.9% of "actions" are glued permanently into a stock am I correct that "action" in many cases might be a good "action/stock/trigger assembly???"

I've seen dog barrels light right up on another action and I've seen very hot setups go sour when taken apart and re-glued.

Yes you are right. some good shooters don't shoot as good after being re-glued. And yes i have seen "bad" barrels that worked on other actions. But I had a talk with Ed just this week about certain actions that just always worked. I don't mean that they would win the match every time you pulled them out, but didn't shoot big no matter the barrel or the stock. Ed has one and I believe I have one, but I'm not Ed. Glenn thinks he had one. In other words you may have a gun that shoots smaller, but this paticular gun doesn't shoot as big if the wheels are coming off. In no way am I implying that they make a bad barrel good, or will shoot with a trigger that causes ignition prolems, but just dependable. Like Ed said, if you need a .4 at 200 this gun will give it to you every time. I hope you don't think that i meant a good action doesn't need good barrels, trigger or scopes. That was not what I meant. All actions are not created equal. Does that sound right Glenn.

 

[sdean]

Yes you are right. some good shooters don't shoot as good after being re-glued. And yes i have seen "bad" barrels that worked on other actions. But I had a talk with Ed just this week about certain actions that just always worked. I don't mean that they would win the match every time you pulled them out, but didn't shoot big no matter the barrel or the stock. Ed has one and I believe I have one, but I'm not Ed. Glenn thinks he had one. In other words you may have a gun that shoots smaller, but this paticular gun doesn't shoot as big if the wheels are coming off. In no way am I implying that they make a bad barrel good, or will shoot with a trigger that causes ignition prolems, but just dependable. Like Ed said, if you need a .4 at 200 this gun will give it to you every time. I hope you don't think that i meant a good action doesn't need good barrels, trigger or scopes. That was not what I meant. All actions are not created equal. Does that sound right Glenn.

There is something correct about that thinking. I got some advice from a wise man once. If you ever get a chance to buy a winning rifle, buy it. Wilbur Harris.

 

[Nader]

The Big Picture

The main reasoning behind my participation in this thread is to make the point that anybody can do this. Anybody with a decent Benchrest rifle and some basic equipment and the willingness to show up at a match can compete. At any range across the country a new BR shooter will be greeted with open arms helpful hands and usually an invitation to dinner. Open discussion around the reloading area is a great place to pick up knowledge and improve your game. Be invited to sit behind somebody else's bench set up and shoot their rifle during practice sessions, ask questions and get honest answers. It truly is a brotherhood of like minded accuracy enthusiasts.
I try, when I can to dispel the myth of any mystic "excaliber" rifles that only King Arthur can wield. At every major shoot very good rifles and equipment are for sale at reasonable prices. T- powder, Hottenstien bullets, proven scopes and equipment from real shooters with real phone numbers and a willingness to help along the guy that bought their stuff.
So you finish your first match at the bottom of the list, no big deal, we all did. You will improve, you will have fun and you get to enjoy shooting some of the most accurate rifles on the planet. Hope to see you around.
Joel

 

[alinwa]

There is something correct about that thinking. I got some advice from a wise man once. If you ever get a chance to buy a winning rifle, buy it. Wilbur Harris.

That brung a wee tear to my eye..... and truer words were never spoken!

 

[B_Rob85]

The main reasoning behind my participation in this thread is to make the point that anybody can do this. Anybody with a decent Benchrest rifle and some basic equipment and the willingness to show up at a match can compete. At any range across the country a new BR shooter will be greeted with open arms helpful hands and usually an invitation to dinner. Open discussion around the reloading area is a great place to pick up knowledge and improve your game. Be invited to sit behind somebody else's bench set up and shoot their rifle during practice sessions, ask questions and get honest answers. It truly is a brotherhood of like minded accuracy enthusiasts.
I try, when I can to dispel the myth of any mystic "excaliber" rifles that only King Arthur can wield. At every major shoot very good rifles and equipment are for sale at reasonable prices. T- powder, Hottenstien bullets, proven scopes and equipment from real shooters with real phone numbers and a willingness to help along the guy that bought their stuff.
So you finish your first match at the bottom of the list, no big deal, we all did. You will improve, you will have fun and you get to enjoy shooting some of the most accurate rifles on the planet. Hope to see you around.
Joel

Just because this needs posted again….

I hope every person who’s looking to get into Benchrest and wanders onto this forum will read this.

Thank you Joel.

-Brian

 

[Chism G]

Not all Actions are created equal

Yes you are right. some good shooters don't shoot as good after being re-glued. And yes i have seen "bad" barrels that worked on other actions. But I had a talk with Ed just this week about certain actions that just always worked. I don't mean that they would win the match every time you pulled them out, but didn't shoot big no matter the barrel or the stock. Ed has one and I believe I have one, but I'm not Ed. Glenn thinks he had one. In other words you may have a gun that shoots smaller, but this paticular gun doesn't shoot as big if the wheels are coming off. In no way am I implying that they make a bad barrel good, or will shoot with a trigger that causes ignition prolems, but just dependable. Like Ed said, if you need a .4 at 200 this gun will give it to you every time. I hope you don't think that i meant a good action doesn't need good barrels, trigger or scopes. That was not what I meant. All actions are not created equal. Does that sound right Glenn.

Hey Dennis,good to see you in the room.I don’t see where its necessary ,for you, to defend your position on your observation that “All actions are not created equal” Ive also heard some of the shooters you mention ,say the same thing, about some rifles. I think Mike Conry designs and builds his own actions.

Some actions have issues that need to be addressed to assure proper function. I bought my Rifle used from an experienced Benchrest shooter/gunsmith. I finished in the top five at the first registered match I ever attended.
All the top shooters in the Region were in attendance.`

Ive told this story here before, so i’ll keep it short. I was so hooked after that first match, I immediately began collecting components to have another rifle built(From scratch) using the same identical parts. The second Rifle never matched the accuracy of that first one.Switching things around didn’t help. Both Rifles got stolen at the same time. The new one was recovered, with help from some friends at the ATF. I’m reluctant to disclose how much I’ve spent trying to replace that hummer rifle. If you’ve ever owned one of these rifles you know what I’m talking about.

I do this for fun, like I do any recreational sport/hobby. I retired,20 years ago, from a high stress job. Have no desire to turn a recreational sport into a job.

I view an action as the heart/engine of the Rifle. Same as a race car. You race car enthusiasts, that post here, can relate to this. Ive been told that the engine is the most important part of a race car build. You can put together the best race car, but unless you spend time, learning how to drive it, its just another car.

I think Scopes is high on the list of importance. I posted here before the book,”extreme Rifle Accuracy” by Mike Ratigan was published. I had two agg killing scopes. A problem that took too long to identify.

Barrels,Bullets, One Hall Of Famer says Reamers make a difference. Charles Huckeba says primers make a difference. Larry Baggett says powder makes a difference. A lot of things to try to process for some.

If it was easy it wouldn’t be fun.

Hope to see you at a match in 2022.


Glenn

 

[Chism G]

Hummer Rifle Stock

You might remember getting beat by this Rifle

 

[Dennis L Martin]

The Blue Light Special!

I've been beat by so many I could never remember them all. But you should be honored because I sure remember that K-Mart gun. I think i actually asked you about it when we shared a bench in Lubbock.

 

[Chism G]

All Actions are not created equal

I've been beat by so many I could never remember them all. But you should be honored because I sure remember that K-Mart gun. I think i actually asked you about it when we shared a bench in Lubbock.

Thanks Dennis. I am truly honored. That Rifle brings back some fun memories. it brought smiles to many faces.

During my stay here,I see people that find enjoyment, in just showing up and shooting with like minded people. Some travel long distances, for love of the sport. Some never win much of anything. Actually the only losers are the people that don’t show up. That commitment has always been the LIFE LINE OF THE SPORT. The road to the Hall Of Fame begins when you walk in the door.

I Don’t pass up an opportunity to introduce a new shooter to the sport. I don’t know how much longer i’ll keep coming back, I’m half speed due to age related issues. I still like talking about the good times and sharing benches with fellow shooters. Oh… It was Speedy who said that "Reamers" make a difference.


Glenn

 

[Al Nyhus]

Actually the only losers are the people that don’t show up. Glenn

Well said, Glenn.

Good shootin' -Al

 

[Pete Wass]

SO, practice:

Lets talk about how much and how to practice.

Pete

 

[Nader]

Practice ?

From a group shooters point of view, none of us get much practice. The evaluation of equipment is paramount in our non-match range time. We put on a barrel and run a ladder test with our best components looking for, hoping for, a barrel that that just sticks 'em. We don't cherry pick conditions on the range. We want to see a barrel that cuts through the minor changes in the wind angle and intensity with a moderately wide tune window. If we are fortunate enough(usually 1 out of 4) to have such a barrel we will usually park the rifle at under 100rds until we can get to a match and shoot an agg in competition with it. These 6ppc's don't hold gilt edge accuracy much past 1000 rds so we don't want to waste a potential winner in practice.
So now we move on to rifle #2 and maybe it dosn't look fantastic, again we don't cherry pick conditions but this barrel gets pushed around by every little pick up and angle change, so we check for fouling issues and keep working with it up and down the ladder in seating depth and powder charge until it behaves in an honest fashion for the conditions at hand. Maybe it gives us nothing, maybe we change powder and or bullets looking for a barrel we can compete with. Usually within 200rds we have some opinion of what we can do with it.
And so the progression goes onto rifle #3. Almost all of these barrels will be competitive at one match or another. At some matches conditions will be near perfect and it will take your best barrel to pull off a win. At other matches conditions will be just horrible and we will bring out a second string rifle as not to waste a great barrel when you don't need glimmering accuracy to win the match. Sometimes I am just not shooting that well, not focused, missing easy to read flag changes, etc and I will leave my best rifle in the case for another day.
Here in Vegas we shoot score matches once a month and that is my best practice session. The range usually clocks around throughout the day with velocity and angle changes almost constantly. It's not like back east where you can pound the sighter until you are dead nuts positive where the bullet will impact, conditions change too fast. You need to keep your eyes peeled, watch the flags, swing and hold.
I use my not so good 6ppc barrels, bullets, etc. I generally score 496-499 in the 1-200 grand with a low X count. The 30's on the line generally out X me at 100 but the 6 usually takes the day at 200.
I generally arrive at my group matches a day or two ahead of time with 2 rifles and will check the rifles tune for the ambient range conditions(temp,humidity,altitude,etc). Then shoot some groups in different wind conditions(velocity,angle) to see what conditions are the most favorable to shooting small groups and aggs. When the match begins I'm usually prepared for whatever the day will bring.
Joel

 

[Pete Wass]

Thanks for the reply

From a group shooters point of view, none of us get much practice. The evaluation of equipment is paramount in our non-match range time. We put on a barrel and run a ladder test with our best components looking for, hoping for, a barrel that that just sticks 'em. We don't cherry pick conditions on the range. We want to see a barrel that cuts through the minor changes in the wind angle and intensity with a moderately wide tune window. If we are fortunate enough(usually 1 out of 4) to have such a barrel we will usually park the rifle at under 100rds until we can get to a match and shoot an agg in competition with it. These 6ppc's don't hold gilt edge accuracy much past 1000 rds so we don't want to waste a potential winner in practice.
So now we move on to rifle #2 and maybe it dosn't look fantastic, again we don't cherry pick conditions but this barrel gets pushed around by every little pick up and angle change, so we check for fouling issues and keep working with it up and down the ladder in seating depth and powder charge until it behaves in an honest fashion for the conditions at hand. Maybe it gives us nothing, maybe we change powder and or bullets looking for a barrel we can compete with. Usually within 200rds we have some opinion of what we can do with it.
And so the progression goes onto rifle #3. Almost all of these barrels will be competitive at one match or another. At some matches conditions will be near perfect and it will take your best barrel to pull off a win. At other matches conditions will be just horrible and we will bring out a second string rifle as not to waste a great barrel when you don't need glimmering accuracy to win the match. Sometimes I am just not shooting that well, not focused, missing easy to read flag changes, etc and I will leave my best rifle in the case for another day.
Here in Vegas we shoot score matches once a month and that is my best practice session. The range usually clocks around throughout the day with velocity and angle changes almost constantly. It's not like back east where you can pound the sighter until you are dead nuts positive where the bullet will impact, conditions change too fast. You need to keep your eyes peeled, watch the flags, swing and hold.
I use my not so good 6ppc barrels, bullets, etc. I generally score 496-499 in the 1-200 grand with a low X count. The 30's on the line generally out X me at 100 but the 6 usually takes the day at 200.
I generally arrive at my group matches a day or two ahead of time with 2 rifles and will check the rifles tune for the ambient range conditions(temp,humidity,altitude,etc). Then shoot some groups in different wind conditions(velocity,angle) to see what conditions are the most favorable to shooting small groups and aggs. When the match begins I'm usually prepared for whatever the day will bring.
Joel

This process, more or less is what I see folks doing at the range. Most people I know buy a barrel, get it chambered and find something that will shoot in it and shoot it until it quits. None of the people I shoot with shoot Group. Group shooting just isn't practical for us because the matches are so far away. Most of the shooters (Score Shooting) I shoot with shot 30's.

I have the idea that practice should be done in match like conditions, against the clock with all one's match equipment set up. A few folks do that. I never have practiced in the more than 20 years I have been shooting. I once either heard or read that Tony B practiced every day he could, had his own range close to his house. Don't know if it's true but if it is, that's dedication. Years ago now, I had 200 yards at my house but never used it to practice. Should have. I am going to endeavor to practice some in the coming year. I know I have more and more trouble remembering things so perhaps practice will help that.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Pete

 

[K Hope]

Practice ?

You need to keep your eyes peeled, watch the flags, swing and hold.
Joel

I remember watching you and Harley one time the day before the shoot doing exactly that. It was real fine watching. I wish I had of been smart enough to ask question......

Ken

 

[Pete Wass]

I have often wondered

You might remember getting beat by this Rifle

how much a stock and bedding play into how accurate rifles are. Will a Hummer barreled action, bedded into another stock still be a hummer? I've never believed actions were the critical link. Once the bolt locks a round up in a barrel, the action has served it's function and requirements. So, will a Hummer Platform, a bedded action, allow a wider quality of barrel to be more accurate?

Pete

 

[Chism G]

"Blue Light Special"

Pete,the only way to find out is to screw a "wider quality barrel" on my "Blue Light Special", and see what happens.

I bedded the action into the stock you see in the picture. As previously stated, I purchased the Rifle used, from a well known Benchrest shooter/gunsmith. I have no idea what he might have done to the action prior to my possession. The Rifle came with a new Shilen barrel. I had two Kreigers and a bartline chambered ,with my reamer,when the Shilen finally gave up. They all shot great. The Shilen was a real Hummer.

The brand new Rifle,Same brand action and stock, came with a new Kreiger.barrel. It never shot like the” Blue Light Special”. I had four new barrels chambered for that new Rifle. It shot just OK. Nothing special. It became my backup, that I seldom reached for.

i miss my Rifle.

Glenn

 

[Chism G]

Practice

This process, more or less is what I see folks doing at the range. Most people I know buy a barrel, get it chambered and find something that will shoot in it and shoot it until it quits. None of the people I shoot with shoot Group. Group shooting just isn't practical for us because the matches are so far away. Most of the shooters (Score Shooting) I shoot with shot 30's.

I have the idea that practice should be done in match like conditions, against the clock with all one's match equipment set up. A few folks do that. I never have practiced in the more than 20 years I have been shooting. I once either heard or read that Tony B practiced every day he could, had his own range close to his house. Don't know if it's true but if it is, that's dedication. Years ago now, I had 200 yards at my house but never used it to practice. Should have. I am going to endeavor to practice some in the coming year. I know I have more and more trouble remembering things so perhaps practice will help that.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Pete

I Need Practice

Ive shot at matches with Competitors who have private ranges at home or they live in close proximity to a Rifle range. A few have underground tunnels. Does it make a difference?. I don’t know. Don’t have a private range or tunnel. Sure would be nice to be able to walk out the back door and test your ammo,Bench technique,scope,etc,etc. Unfortunately,Some dont have a place to practice. Some show up at Benchrest matches ,having practiced very little. This is not a bad thing. There is a lot to be learned at a Benchrest match. The big thing is, you’re in speaking distance of a group of knowledgeable shooters. Don’t be hesitant to ask. Some will keep coming back. For some, it’s a revolving door. This scenario is true, regarding any recreational sport. Thats why it’s important to not slam the door in the face of those who show an interest.

I think the mentoring program is a great idea for those who wish to take advantage of it.


Glenn

 

[dmwphoto]

I Need Practice

Ive shot at matches with Competitors who have private ranges at home or they live in close proximity to a Rifle range. A few have underground tunnels. Does it make a difference?. I don’t know. Don’t have a private range or tunnel. Sure would be nice to be able to walk out the back door and test your ammo,Bench technique,scope,etc,etc. Unfortunately,Some dont have a place to practice. Some show up at Benchrest matches ,having practiced very little. This is not a bad thing. There is a lot to be learned at a Benchrest match. The big thing is, you’re in speaking distance of a group of knowledgeable shooters. Don’t be hesitant to ask. Some will keep coming back. For some, it’s a revolving door. This scenario is true, regarding any recreational sport. Thats why it’s important to not slam the door in the face of those who show an interest.

I think the mentoring program is a great idea for those who wish to take advantage of it.


Glenn

well said

 

[Pete Wass]

Did you try

Pete,the only way to find out is to screw a "wider quality barrel" on my "Blue Light Special", and see what happens.

I bedded the action into the stock you see in the picture. As previously stated, I purchased the Rifle used, from a well known Benchrest shooter/gunsmith. I have no idea what he might have done to the action prior to my possession. The Rifle came with a new Shilen barrel. I had two Kreigers and a bartline chambered ,with my reamer,when the Shilen finally gave up. They all shot great. The Shilen was a real Hummer.

The brand new Rifle,Same brand action and stock, came with a new Kreiger.barrel. It never shot like the” Blue Light Special”. I had four new barrels chambered for that new Rifle. It shot just OK. Nothing special. It became my backup, that I seldom reached for.

i miss my Rifle.

Glenn

the New barreled action in the Black stock? That would be the only to find out if it is, in fact the action, wouldn't it? Have you tried the Blue Light Special barreled action in another stock?

Thanks,

Pete