A list of importance:

[Pete Wass]

this ended up

being something other than we had in mind. We were sort of expecting folks to analyze their equipment, mostly and think about what was the most essential thing first then list say the trigger, how important it i is, the front rest is , the rear bag is; everything we tote around with us to give us the opportunity to win. In what order is whatever it is important.

His thinking was perhaps we might find we need to tweak something or some things we do and or don't do that we should, taking stock, if you will.

Anyway, it was really that simple.

Pete

 

[Pete Wass]

Valid

your loaded ammo....an inside observation!

It will be on my list.

 

[Pete Wass]

Way more basic

So which is it? Buying your way in....There 2 definitions. Yep 2.
1. Buying the best equipment and components. Or.
2. The above and having the stuff, drive, motivation, experimenting, time(shooting everyday. All conditions.), ER whatever....That costs money also.

Not sure I got my point across. Someone might have the money. But, not the time or motivation to shoot everyday....
Tim B.

In for a penny, in for a pound. Many people have good enough equipment to win and some do on occasion. Some things are more essential than others. I keep harking back to something Jackie Schmidt said years ago on BRC: 75% of all the rifles on the line are out of tune, at any given time. So, if we think about what are the most important things, that might get some of us in better tune.

Pete

 

[zippy06]

In for a penny, in for a pound. Many people have good enough equipment to win and some do on occasion. Some things are more essential than others. I keep harking back to something Jackie Schmidt said years ago on BRC: 75% of all the rifles on the line are out of tune, at any given time. So, if we think about what are the most important things, that might get some of us in better tune.

Pete

Pete. I remember that....

 

[Nader]

Most Important

Front rest & Rear bag:
There are lots of good front rests out there but the joystick type rests are often adjusted too loose and can cause the shooters hand to flinch when the shooter next to you fires his rifle. With most ranges requiring super feet these days you need to make sure your front rest feet aren't sliding around on smooth concrete surfaces.
Rear bags are most often the unnoticed cause of accuracy woes. There are many different bags used by BR shooters that have different physiques and different shooting styles.
Tall bags can be problematic, shorter bags tend to deflect less and give a more stable platform. Can you move out of and back into your set up without having to readjust your aim ? Can you move the rifle back and forward without readjusting your aim? When you fire the rifle and push it forward is it still at the same aim point ? Check the fill on your bag body and ears, most guys tend to over fill and the rear bag becomes bouncy. Don't let your stock bottom out between the ears, there should be a little space on the bottom. Is your rear bag rocking on the bench surface when you try to wiggle it around ? Maybe you need a donut to take the rock out of it. Is your rear bag sliding away from you if you lean on it ? Maybe you need some water on the bench surface to give it some bite.
Front and rear ear materials vary but you need to have a consistently smooth drag factor when the rifle recoils. Leather ears can be troublesome in Damp or humid conditions.
Spend a day at the range focusing on your rest and bags. You might find a problem you've been overlooking.
Joel

 

[Al Nyhus]

Hard to get into specifics because everything counts in real Benchrest...with a capital 'B', as Jackie puts it.

Many people 'out gadget' themselves right from the start. Good basic gear and tooling, that does what it's supposed to, is the best approach, from my experience.

A good example is seating dies. A $250 beautifully custom made seating die made from material smuggled out of the Russian space program and machined by a Swedish virgin drinking Perrier by the moon light might look pretty cool. But a $69 Wilson seater can work just as well.

Same thing with a press for threaded dies. A $400 billet aluminum press of the finest craftsmanship is cool. But a little $75 RCBS Partner press works just as well. And sometimes better.

Nothing wrong with stepping up to good gear...just make sure you're doing it after reaching the limits of the basic stuff.

Good shootin'. -Al

 

[Nader]

Barrels and Bullets

Take a great shooting rifle and set it up on a flawed front rest and rear bag set up and it will still be a great shooting rifle but you will struggle to shoot a 5 shot group with it in competition and your aggregates will suffer. That's why the bench set up is top priority.
Take a good rifle that will shoot a .2100 agg in good conditions off of a good bench set up. Replace your Jewell trigger with a Bix-n-Andy or a Flavio. You still have a .2100 rifle. Unglue that Kelbly fiberglass stock and replace it with a Scoville or Scarbrough carbon fibre stock. You still have a .2100 rifle. Pull off the Leupold scope and replace it with a March or Nightforce. You still have a 2100 rifle.
Change up to some real good bullets and your aggregates will shrink down into the .1800's. Try and shoot some not so good bullets and your aggs will skyrocket. This makes good bullets the #1component priority in Benchrest. That is why the overwhelming majority of top competitors make their own.
Most barrels (80%) available today are really good in my opinion. I don't have any testing system other than to run a ladder test with good bullets and see how they look. Some(20%)won't consistantly group with any combo of seating depth and powder charge. Others will look good with only one seating depth/ powder charge. While a few will look good over multiple seating depth/ powder charges. You can't sit in practice and burn up a potentially good barrel so you take it to a match and see how it aggs. If you win, it's safe to say it's a real good barrel. If the agg dosn't go well you clean it up real good and try it again at another not so important match. I have 4 sporters and generally chamber up a new barrel for each one every year.
Now if I take a proven .1800 agg barrel and screw it on any of my other sporters it's still an .1800 agg barrel. If I take a .2300 agg barrel and screw it on another rifle it's still a .2300 barrel. With barrels and bullets you have good ones and not so good ones.
Put a not so good barrel together with not so good bullets and you will " let the beatings commence immediately".
Put a good barrel together with good bullets and you'll be in the winners circle.
Joel

 

[Pete Wass]

Great reply

Take a great shooting rifle and set it up on a flawed front rest and rear bag set up and it will still be a great shooting rifle but you will struggle to shoot a 5 shot group with it in competition and your aggregates will suffer. That's why the bench set up is top priority.
Take a good rifle that will shoot a .2100 agg in good conditions off of a good bench set up. Replace your Jewell trigger with a Bix-n-Andy or a Flavio. You still have a .2100 rifle. Unglue that Kelbly fiberglass stock and replace it with a Scoville or Scarbrough carbon fibre stock. You still have a .2100 rifle. Pull off the Leupold scope and replace it with a March or Nightforce. You still have a 2100 rifle.
Change up to some real good bullets and your aggregates will shrink down into the .1800's. Try and shoot some not so good bullets and your aggs will skyrocket. This makes good bullets the #1component priority in Benchrest. That is why the overwhelming majority of top competitors make their own.
Most barrels (80%) available today are really good in my opinion. I don't have any testing system other than to run a ladder test with good bullets and see how they look. Some(20%)won't consistantly group with any combo of seating depth and powder charge. Others will look good with only one seating depth/ powder charge. While a few will look good over multiple seating depth/ powder charges. You can't sit in practice and burn up a potentially good barrel so you take it to a match and see how it aggs. If you win, it's safe to say it's a real good barrel. If the agg dosn't go well you clean it up real good and try it again at another not so important match. I have 4 sporters and generally chamber up a new barrel for each one every year.
Now if I take a proven .1800 agg barrel and screw it on any of my other sporters it's still an .1800 agg barrel. If I take a .2300 agg barrel and screw it on another rifle it's still a .2300 barrel. With barrels and bullets you have good ones and not so good ones.
Put a not so good barrel together with not so good bullets and you will " let the beatings commence immediately".
Put a good barrel together with good bullets and you'll be in the winners circle.
Joel

Thank you for this. Real world information. Having said that, are you a "gadget guy" or an old school simple equipment guy?

Thanks,

Pete

 

[Pete Wass]

I agree on this stuff

Front rest & Rear bag:
There are lots of good front rests out there but the joystick type rests are often adjusted too loose and can cause the shooters hand to flinch when the shooter next to you fires his rifle. With most ranges requiring super feet these days you need to make sure your front rest feet aren't sliding around on smooth concrete surfaces.
Rear bags are most often the unnoticed cause of accuracy woes. There are many different bags used by BR shooters that have different physiques and different shooting styles.
Tall bags can be problematic, shorter bags tend to deflect less and give a more stable platform. Can you move out of and back into your set up without having to readjust your aim ? Can you move the rifle back and forward without readjusting your aim? When you fire the rifle and push it forward is it still at the same aim point ? Check the fill on your bag body and ears, most guys tend to over fill and the rear bag becomes bouncy. Don't let your stock bottom out between the ears, there should be a little space on the bottom. Is your rear bag rocking on the bench surface when you try to wiggle it around ? Maybe you need a donut to take the rock out of it. Is your rear bag sliding away from you if you lean on it ? Maybe you need some water on the bench surface to give it some bite.
Front and rear ear materials vary but you need to have a consistently smooth drag factor when the rifle recoils. Leather ears can be troublesome in Damp or humid conditions.
Spend a day at the range focusing on your rest and bags. You might find a problem you've been overlooking.
Joel

Great information. Thank you for contributing.

Pete

 

[Pete Wass]

Thanks Glenn

Pete as you know, this is an equipment driven sport. Ive talked to many of the top Benchrest shooters in the region, who have shared their stories about their personal journeys in this fun sport. The general consensus is, as Gary Bristow puts it, “ Buy the best equipment.” I mention fun, because my idea of success in any sport, that i don’t get paid to play, is the fun ,the people, the challenge. Ive posted some of the fun Benchrest experiences I’ve had on this forum.

Through the years, I have browsed through some of the Big matches, equipment lists. Just to get an idea of what some of the top competitors are bringing to the arena. Now,this list of gear has constantly evolved through the years. The quest for extreme accuracy, never ends. The designers and creators of the latest equipment/gear deserves some credit. Some of the gadgets that you convince yourself that you can’t live without, are not cheap. Every sport/hobby that Ive ever tried, turned out to be way more expensive than I anticipated. On the list of importance, Mike Ratigan,writes in his book “Extreme Rifle Accuracy”, that Rifle scopes is the “weakest Link” in the equipment list. Mike refers to a scope that won't hold POI. Ive owned a couple of those.





Glenn

Great information.

Pete

 

[Pete Wass]

I agree

Take a great shooting rifle and set it up on a flawed front rest and rear bag set up and it will still be a great shooting rifle but you will struggle to shoot a 5 shot group with it in competition and your aggregates will suffer. That's why the bench set up is top priority.
Take a good rifle that will shoot a .2100 agg in good conditions off of a good bench set up. Replace your Jewell trigger with a Bix-n-Andy or a Flavio. You still have a .2100 rifle. Unglue that Kelbly fiberglass stock and replace it with a Scoville or Scarbrough carbon fibre stock. You still have a .2100 rifle. Pull off the Leupold scope and replace it with a March or Nightforce. You still have a 2100 rifle.
Change up to some real good bullets and your aggregates will shrink down into the .1800's. Try and shoot some not so good bullets and your aggs will skyrocket. This makes good bullets the #1component priority in Benchrest. That is why the overwhelming majority of top competitors make their own.
Most barrels (80%) available today are really good in my opinion. I don't have any testing system other than to run a ladder test with good bullets and see how they look. Some(20%)won't consistantly group with any combo of seating depth and powder charge. Others will look good with only one seating depth/ powder charge. While a few will look good over multiple seating depth/ powder charges. You can't sit in practice and burn up a potentially good barrel so you take it to a match and see how it aggs. If you win, it's safe to say it's a real good barrel. If the agg dosn't go well you clean it up real good and try it again at another not so important match. I have 4 sporters and generally chamber up a new barrel for each one every year.
Now if I take a proven .1800 agg barrel and screw it on any of my other sporters it's still an .1800 agg barrel. If I take a .2300 agg barrel and screw it on another rifle it's still a .2300 barrel. With barrels and bullets you have good ones and not so good ones.
Put a not so good barrel together with not so good bullets and you will " let the beatings commence immediately".
Put a good barrel together with good bullets and you'll be in the winners circle.
Joel

Great information. Thank you for contributing.

Pete

 

[Pete Wass]

Buying your way in

So which is it? Buying your way in....There 2 definitions. Yep 2.
1. Buying the best equipment and components. Or.
2. The above and having the stuff, drive, motivation, experimenting, time(shooting everyday. All conditions.), ER whatever....That costs money also.

Not sure I got my point across. Someone might have the money. But, not the time or motivation to shoot everyday....
Tim B.

is limited to ones ability and determination to succeed, in my opinion. With the very best equipment, a person still needs to posses the skill necessary to win and want to win. Those skills are at least half of the equation I think.

Pete

 

[sdean]

is limited to ones ability and determination to succeed, in my opinion. With the very best equipment, a person still needs to posses the skill necessary to win and want to win. Those skills are at least half of the equation I think.

Pete

I say more than half Pete
How many capable of winning rifles have been built by Dwight Smith, Billy Stevens, Wayne Campbell and a lot more, are out there?
What's the difference? The guy that tunes the gun, the guy that makes the ammo, the guy that decides when to pull the trigger, the guy that decided which equipment to buy and a bunch of other things that make a difference.

 

[John VM]

Put a not so good barrel together with not so good bullets and you will " let the beatings commence immediately".

Joel[/QUOTE]
Don't I know it. I am still recovering from the nationals LOL.
I will add that the rifle itself has to be solid as in bedding and firing assembly has to be flawless.

 

[Nader]

Gear and Gadgets

We want our resized brass to fit the chamber very closely. With the custom dies we have available it's not that hard to do. Most custom dies utilize floating neck bushings that leave a small portion of the neck near the shoulder unsized. The reloaded cartridge uses that portion of the neck to center the case in the chamber. The bolt face closes up against the case head on a properly sized case and "bingo" we have perfect alignment. With the bullet seated into the rifling we have additional physical alignment. I have five different dies( Kelbly, Goodling, JLC, Harrells, Redding SB) that are all capable of completing this task with equal success. They all vary to some degree in the amount they size case body diameter but that dosn't change the raw accuracy potential of the 6PPC as long as the case shoulder and unsized base of the neck are aligned in the chamber and the case head is up against a square closed bolt face. Of course, minimal body sizing will promote smooth functioning through the rifle and prolonged brass life.
So we need to control exactly with each piece of brass how much we push the shoulder back. Open face C- frame presses( like the Harrells) aren't very good at this once the brass has been fired and resized more than 4 or 5 times. O- frame presses flex less and do a much better job of consistant sizing. Do you need a custom $600 press to achieve this ? I use an old Rockchucker with a little home made gizmo that lets the die float(to eliminate any alignment problems).
When we seat bullets with an arbor press the case head is flush up against the base plate and the stem of the seater is being pushed straight down from above. The Wilson seater die holds things in a general vertical alignment as the bullet is gently slid into the case neck. Would a closer fitting, chamber matching, micro adjustable seater die do a better job ? Yeah, probably. Is there any lateral force being applied anywhere during the seating process ? No, I use a standard Wilson in line seater.
Power case trimmers that trim and chamfer after every resize. No thanks, I use a Wilson trimmer with a hand crank.
Electric annealing machines to stress relieve each case after every resize. No thanks, I don't like my brass that relaxed.
Electric powder dispensers ? Now you got me ! Weighed powder charges do slightly outperform thrown charges. Unfortunately the Chargemaster scale is not real accurate nor is anything else your going to drive around with you in your truck and set up in the wind and rain outside at a rifle range. I have one but only use it when I have a solid sheltered place to reload and lots of time between relays.
I use a Harrells drop measure 80% of the time.
The first thing I found attractive about Benchrest shooting was the simplicity of the portable reloading kit that the old guys brought with them to the range. A small tool box in the trunk of their car. It's still all we really need.
Joel

 

[Dennis L Martin]

The list

Actions are an item that are high up on my list. I have had several succesful shooters tell me about having an action that always shot. Larry Baggett, Gene Buckys, Ed Adams, Mike Conry, Charles Huckaba, and the list goes on. No matter what barrel that you had on it. Some people shoot for years with one or maybe two actions and never really get anywhere. Barrels and bullets are important but there is something to be said about actions. All actions are not created equal.

 

[Chism G]

Something to be said about Actions

Actions are an item that are high up on my list. I have had several succesful shooters tell me about having an action that always shot. Larry Baggett, Gene Buckys, Ed Adams, Mike Conry, Charles Huckaba, and the list goes on. No matter what barrel that you had on it. Some people shoot for years with one or maybe two actions and never really get anywhere. Barrels and bullets are important but there is something to be said about actions. All actions are not created equal.

I had one of them actions Dennis. Made me think I knew how to shoot Benchrest. It got stolen. The possibility exists,there is a weak link in every list.The good shooters find it and fix it.

Glenn

 

[alinwa]

Actions are an item that are high up on my list. I have had several succesful shooters tell me about having an action that always shot. Larry Baggett, Gene Buckys, Ed Adams, Mike Conry, Charles Huckaba, and the list goes on. No matter what barrel that you had on it. Some people shoot for years with one or maybe two actions and never really get anywhere. Barrels and bullets are important but there is something to be said about actions. All actions are not created equal.

Serious question Dennis.... you say "actions".

Since 99.9% of "actions" are glued permanently into a stock am I correct that "action" in many cases might be a good "action/stock/trigger assembly???"

I've seen dog barrels light right up on another action and I've seen very hot setups go sour when taken apart and re-glued.

 

[Pete Wass]

I've owned a lot of Benchrest rifles

I say more than half Pete
How many capable of winning rifles have been built by Dwight Smith, Billy Stevens, Wayne Campbell and a lot more, are out there?
What's the difference? The guy that tunes the gun, the guy that makes the ammo, the guy that decides when to pull the trigger, the guy that decided which equipment to buy and a bunch of other things that make a difference.

over the years, built for me, traded for, bought outright and of all of them only one of them would throw shots. All the rest of them were and are capable of winning matches. From my experience, winning rifles aren't of the unobtanium. A lot of shooters build their own and win with them. Barrels, on the other hand DO matter a lot. I've had several that weren't fussy what one fed them but they are not common. From my experience, most barrels can be made to shoot but not as well as the "Hummers". So, money spent on barrels is cheaper than components to test teasers that will never shoot. Investing in barrels is likely the appropriate avenue to travel. I have a number of so so barrels on hand that will see me out of the shooting sports but my advice to a young shooter would spend your money finding a HUMMER and once you have found it, shoot it sparingly and be looking for a second as one goes along. Used barrels sell readily.

Pete

 

[Pete Wass]

I, on the other hand

We want our resized brass to fit the chamber very closely. With the custom dies we have available it's not that hard to do. Most custom dies utilize floating neck bushings that leave a small portion of the neck near the shoulder unsized. The reloaded cartridge uses that portion of the neck to center the case in the chamber. The bolt face closes up against the case head on a properly sized case and "bingo" we have perfect alignment. With the bullet seated into the rifling we have additional physical alignment. I have five different dies( Kelbly, Goodling, JLC, Harrells, Redding SB) that are all capable of completing this task with equal success. They all vary to some degree in the amount they size case body diameter but that dosn't change the raw accuracy potential of the 6PPC as long as the case shoulder and unsized base of the neck are aligned in the chamber and the case head is up against a square closed bolt face. Of course, minimal body sizing will promote smooth functioning through the rifle and prolonged brass life.
So we need to control exactly with each piece of brass how much we push the shoulder back. Open face C- frame presses( like the Harrells) aren't very good at this once the brass has been fired and resized more than 4 or 5 times. O- frame presses flex less and do a much better job of consistant sizing. Do you need a custom $600 press to achieve this ? I use an old Rockchucker with a little home made gizmo that lets the die float(to eliminate any alignment problems).
When we seat bullets with an arbor press the case head is flush up against the base plate and the stem of the seater is being pushed straight down from above. The Wilson seater die holds things in a general vertical alignment as the bullet is gently slid into the case neck. Would a closer fitting, chamber matching, micro adjustable seater die do a better job ? Yeah, probably. Is there any lateral force being applied anywhere during the seating process ? No, I use a standard Wilson in line seater.
Power case trimmers that trim and chamfer after every resize. No thanks, I use a Wilson trimmer with a hand crank.
Electric annealing machines to stress relieve each case after every resize. No thanks, I don't like my brass that relaxed.
Electric powder dispensers ? Now you got me ! Weighed powder charges do slightly outperform thrown charges. Unfortunately the Chargemaster scale is not real accurate nor is anything else your going to drive around with you in your truck and set up in the wind and rain outside at a rifle range. I have one but only use it when I have a solid sheltered place to reload and lots of time between relays.
I use a Harrells drop measure 80% of the time.
The first thing I found attractive about Benchrest shooting was the simplicity of the portable reloading kit that the old guys brought with them to the range. A small tool box in the trunk of their car. It's still all we really need.
Joel

believe we have the equipment today to make nearly perfect ammunition and the ammo is what really puts the icing on the cake if all else goes well. One can't have ammo that is too good and ammo with erratic charges and seated bullets is one of the big reasons 75 percent of the rifles on the line are out of tune. I've proven it many times in my testing. "001" and .01gn matter a lot in terms of perfection.

The good thing about America is all of us have the right to our opinions and to be able to express them. I have found over the years I've been able to change my mind about things if I see proof of it, have and do still.

Pete