20 Foot berms on you range??

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D R Greysun

Guest
Just because our BOD wants to spend about 50K :eek: to build up 20 ft. berms on 4 handgun ranges! How many of you have the NRA recommended 20 ft berms at your range? I'm not talking about mountain as back stops but earth berms. Thanx for your time to answer!

D R
 
50k sounds cheaper than a losing a lawsuit should a round go over said berms. 20 Ft berms aint a bad idea, I'd just shop around on the contractor doing the work.
 
At the local range. Our berms are going up this yr. We started last yr.
We were getting ricochets on the rifle range. Saw one myself.
But, we also shortened the target board. Instead of 4x8 plywood. It is 2x8.
And starts at 4' and goes up. That helped a lot. Haven't heard any complaints after that. :)
 
andre3k said:
50k sounds cheaper than a losing a lawsuit should a round go over said berms. 20 Ft berms aint a bad idea, I'd just shop around on the contractor doing the work.
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That's the point how does a 20 ft berm keep a round from going over itself? The problem is not a round going over the berm, it's a round leaving the range! When it comes to a lawsuit, there is no 'winning'. 20 ft, 30 ft hell 50 ft berms will not save your a$$! Did you get the idea I'm not for the project? :) Now, can I assume there are 20 ft berms where you shoot?
D R
 
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You need to think this thing through

D R Greysun said:
That's the point how does a 20 ft berm keep a round from going over itself? The problem is not a round going over the berm, it's a round leaving the range! When it comes to a lawsuit, there is no 'winning'. 20 ft, 30 ft hell 50 ft berms will not save your a$$! Did you get the idea I'm not for the project? :) Now, can I assume there are 20 ft berms where you shoot?
D R
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I have no sympathy for your case. You owe your neighbors safety at least. Your Board of Directors are right.

Our range is located on ranch land and no one is living on the other side of our berms at this time. Some of our berms are that high and they are there to protect the property of the neighbor. If they protect us from a law suit that is just a bonus.

Ask yourself this. How much will it cost to find another piece of real estate and build a range there?

You could cut out some of the bays until you can afford to build the rest right.

I know that you are blowing off steam but think this through.

Concho Bill
 
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You have to factor in the liability insurance .
The NRA has saved our club a lot of money by getting insurance through them...and to get this savings you have to meet certain guidelines.
This liability insurance factor will become another hurdle for clubs and gun owners in the future.
If one does a search on where anti-gun, anti-hunting groups get donations you will see a lot of insurance companies listed.
 
D R Greysun said:
That's the point how does a 20 ft berm keep a round from going over itself? The problem is not a round going over the berm, it's a round leaving the range! When it comes to a lawsuit, there is no 'winning'. 20 ft, 30 ft hell 50 ft berms will not save your a$$! Did you get the idea I'm not for the project? :) Now, can I assume there are 20 ft berms where you shoot?
D R
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Just take my word on it. I attended the NRA range development symposium while researching range designs for a group of investors here in TX. 20 foot berms are not a bad idea. Depending on what calibers are being shot and the length of the range, each caliber has a certain fallout area should a round go over the berm. This fallout area is where a round can safely land without going through someone's roof or vehicle.

Unless you're in the desert, you have a civic and business responsibility to create the safest range that you can possibly build. Having been involved in on the financial side of range development liability is of paramount concern for investors when it comes to range design and construction.
 
andre3k said:
Just take my word on it. I attended the NRA range development symposium while researching range designs for a group of investors here in TX. 20 foot berms are not a bad idea. Depending on what calibers are being shot and the length of the range, each caliber has a certain fallout area should a round go over the berm. This fallout area is where a round can safely land without going through someone's roof or vehicle.

Unless you're in the desert, you have a civic and business responsibility to create the safest range that you can possibly build. Having been involved in on the financial side of range development liability is of paramount concern for investors when it comes to range design and construction.
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My local range also has the fallout area.
 
The range I was a member of in the Seattle area had a wooded hill behind the backstops that was at least 100 ft high, but there were complaints from people who had homes on top of the hill of bullets striking their houses or outbuildings. There was no way that bullets could have struck their buildings from that range. Any holes that were found were at angles that made it a physical impossibility to have come from the range.

The conclusion that can be drawn is that truth and honesty are no burden to people who want to shut a range down. That range had gravel filled covers above the firing lines on the rifle and pistol ranges and baffles downrange so that the only way to fire "out of safety" was to go in front of the firing line.

If you want a place to shoot it's well to do everything you can to make it as safe as possible. The people who don't like guns want to shut us ALL down. :mad:
 
Gentlemen,
Thank you for your opinions but please, just how many of you actually have 20 ft. berms at your ranges? FWIW, the range in question is in the desert and has BLM land on two sides.
There is 3/4 of a mile of fall-out area with-in the range, dirt and sand hills from 40 to 100 ft high with-in that 3/4 mile area. One mile further north is an active aerial gunnery range! But really, I'm just trying to get an idea of the number of ranges that are in compliance with the NRA 'recommened' 20 ft. berms. There is no doubt that in some area they are needed, no arguement here!

D R
 
Of the 7 rifle / pistol ranges I have frequented since I began shooting.....ALL of them have either a berm of at least 20 ft. or have the target backers at the immediate base of a steep hill or mountain......all in rural areas of PA.
I have visited some in urban areas where the municipalities required "baffling" systems to prevent errant shots....in addition to 20 ' berms.
These requirements are usually beyond our control.....can you say "mandate"?
 
Berms

I am a member of River Bend Gun Club in Dawson County, Georgia. We had our annual meeting last Sunday evening regarding all issues from financial reports to the status of new and old projects.

We have several new ranges going in and the moving of dirt took priority in the plans over the finished "eye candy" product. This dirt moving involves berms that we hope keep rounds from 1) leaving the club property; and 2) leaving one range on the club only to find another.

Liability issues are easier and cheaper to address in pre-planning and initial project execution than trying to "fix" the problem. Several of our new project berms involve taking advantage of dirt moved from one new range to another. Also, we are doing this during the season of "open burning" so we do not have to grind trees and remove lumber -- expensive.

You just can't have too many well though out placement of and construction of berms, IMHO.

It sounds like your club has enough buffer land and natural topo to do a great job.

Good luck,
Jim Hardy
 
D R Greysun said:
Gentlemen,
Thank you for your opinions but please, just how many of you actually have 20 ft. berms at your ranges? FWIW, the range in question is in the desert and has BLM land on two sides.
There is 3/4 of a mile of fall-out area with-in the range, dirt and sand hills from 40 to 100 ft high with-in that 3/4 mile area. One mile further north is an active aerial gunnery range! But really, I'm just trying to get an idea of the number of ranges that are in compliance with the NRA 'recommened' 20 ft. berms. There is no doubt that in some area they are needed, no arguement here!

D R
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From what you say, there doesn't sound like much to endanger on the other side of your present berms. In this day of lawyers and regulators, reason doesn't really have a high standing as it once did.

Bulldozer operators work cheaper than lawyers.:)

However, fifty thousand dollars sounds like a lot of money for a pile of dirt that is just laying there on the ground. I assume that you will only have to push the dirt up from your ground. That sounds like a three or four day job and not more than two pieces of earth moving equipment at the most. Why don't you get some more bids or close estimates before you start. It sounds like more in the neighborhood of ten thousand than fifty thousand to me.

Concho Bill
 
D R Greysun said:
Just because our BOD wants to spend about 50K :eek: to build up 20 ft. berms on 4 handgun ranges! How many of you have the NRA recommended 20 ft berms at your range? I'm not talking about mountain as back stops but earth berms. Thanx for your time to answer!

D R
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We have the 20+ foot berms on our clubs 25yd Pistol/smallbore. but they only work when USED as designed.Case in point , About 4 yrs ago the local sherrif gets a call from the owner of a small golf course.Seems a BULLET just came though his roof and busted his wall clock (40cal HP). The Sherrif knowing that our gun club is just west of the golf course about 3/4 mile comes over to see if/who is shooting at the time. well guess who's there ? the CITY POLICE DEPT. Doing their officer down drills.where the officer is on his back at the foot of suspect firing up at him. Well the Police saftey officer didn't think it would HURT anything by shooting over the BERM (A REAL SHARP TACK that guy). We came EXTREMELY CLOSE to loseing our range that day. They now have their own range about 10 miles south of town (old sand pit) glad I don't live that direction. So berms do work you just have to use them like they are designed to be used........oh BTW NO DISIPLENARY ACTION WAS TAKIN ON ANY OFFICER THAT SHOT THAT DAY.they were all shooting 40s and the city didn't want the EMBARASSMENT to do the investigation:mad:
 
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Our 100 yard range has a 40 foot berm and overhead and side baffles plus soft ground baffles. From the firing line it is not possible to shoot out of the range. You can not see anything but the berm and the baffles. Immediately behind our range and beside us is a public hiking trail. It cost us over $150,000 about 10 years ago. Without it we would not have a range.
 
Baffels

We also have the Baffels except ours are located on the fireing line (on the 50.100,200 yd rifle ranges)Dbl hearing protection is a must.
 
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D R Greysun said:
Just because our BOD wants to spend about 50K :eek: to build up 20 ft. berms on 4 handgun ranges! How many of you have the NRA recommended 20 ft berms at your range? I'm not talking about mountain as back stops but earth berms. Thanx for your time to answer! D R
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The Austin Rifle Club just opened (last Wednesday) after being closed for two and a half weeks. Our BOD decided five of our ranges needed to be brought into compliance with the NRA safety rules after years of slow deterioration. Our Centerfire berm was brought up to 26 feet!
 
Several years ago our club had to build 25 ft. berms after a bullet struck the side of a house .9 of a mile away while the man was working in his yard. We have 25' berms @ 50 and 100 meters but the 25 meter berm is only 12'. Targets are fastened to 2x4's that are under a 10ga sheet metal "eyebrow" to help prevent bullets getting out of our range.
We worked with the local County Conservation District and had a pond dug for a lot of the dirt, also had dirt hauled in from local construction projects that needed a place to get rid of spoil.
Oh yea, when that bullet struck that house it shut our range down for like almost 2 years until we received approval on our berms and new safety policys.
 
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