Wilson Die reloading questions

M

Migs

Guest
Friends:

I reload 308 Win on Lapua brass and reload with 46.7 gr Hodgdon BL-C(2) for a 155 gr. Custom Competition bullet. I use Wilson hand dies and a Sinclair press.
My cases are all previously fired on my one and only Steyer CSIM rifle.

I noticed a couple of bullets would slide deep into my cases on seating the bullet well below the desired OAL. Lucky I noticed the deep set and set the brass aside, but what I don't understand is why this happened.

I also wonder why some loaded cartridges just drop out from my seating die, and some require soft extraction with a screw driver tip. Why is these such a variety? I would have expected far more uniformity in the process.

Again I thank you all for taking the time to illustrate this rifleman,

Migs
 
you are experiencing..

Migs said:
Friends:

I reload 308 Win on Lapua brass and reload with 46.7 gr Hodgdon BL-C(2) for a 155 gr. Custom Competition bullet. I use Wilson hand dies and a Sinclair press.
My cases are all previously fired on my one and only Steyer CSIM rifle.

I noticed a couple of bullets would slide deep into my cases on seating the bullet well below the desired OAL. Lucky I noticed the deep set and set the brass aside, but what I don't understand is why this happened.

I also wonder why some loaded cartridges just drop out from my seating die, and some require soft extraction with a screw driver tip. Why is these such a variety? I would have expected far more uniformity in the process.

Again I thank you all for taking the time to illustrate this rifleman,

Migs
Click to expand...

Some web swell on your cases. The sticky cases have slightly larger webs than those that fall out. IMHO, you need to get a FL size die that will size the WHOLE case. Neck sizing ONLY will not fix your current problem.
 
Hi David:

The whole length die defeats the purpose of fire forming your cases to your particular gun though... At my level of addiction, I monkey only with the case necks and mouths. (Though I have the indumentaria to do full length resizing)

Thanks for the input! -Migs
 
Migs, what halblom said is right on the web strech but you need less neck bushing too, I'd get a Redding S bushing die, that will allow you to change the neck bushing, FLS and if needed "bump" the shoulder,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

the wind is my friend,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

DD
 
Migs said:
Hi David:

The whole length die defeats the purpose of fire forming your cases to your particular gun though... At my level of addiction, I monkey only with the case necks and mouths. (Though I have the indumentaria to do full length resizing)

Thanks for the input! -Migs
Click to expand...

Very few people in the accuracy world over here neck size only. A proper Full Length sizing die will solve your problems and actually help accuracy but I reinterate...a proper full length sizing die. A Redding Type S FL die with the proper bushing and setup properly should do the trick.

Hovis
 
Hi Hovis:

I have Forster full length dies, but just recently went all out and bought Wilson dies, which are neck only.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts! -Migs
 
Migs said:
Hi Hovis:

I have Forster full length dies, but just recently went all out and bought Wilson dies, which are neck only.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts! -Migs
Click to expand...


Migs,

I don't think you really understand what were trying to say. Wilson neck dies are not "all out" anymore. Now the Wilson seater is great and 95% of benchrest shooter use them or a variation of them but I haven't seen over a couple of neck dies at a match in years. I still own a couple of Wilson Neck dies but they collect dust. The issues you are having with the seater die is only going to get worse. Now there are a couple of people who will do the die conversion on your forester FL die but you would have to ship it to the U.S. and it would probably be cheaper to get a Redding Type "S" Full Length die and be done with it. The Redding die is much different than you forester die.

hovis
 
When a gun writer needs a little extra cash he dashes off a piece about how great neck sizing is and sells it to "Babes and Bullets" magazine.
With no grip on the case body, a neck die lets the case wonder around and tip any old way it feels like.

You get lots of runout. Always. Every Time

Wilson makes great stuff, don't get me wrong. But it's still "one size fits all"
A custom FLS die like a Neil Jones that just, just kisses the case body, just, just bumps the sholder, and gives about .002" grip on the bullet is the only way to get really top quality cases.
 
Hovis:

You are right: Now you really lost me.

Let's say I full length size my brass on the Forster. Won't I have lost the perfect shot formed case size on my brass?

Why will the issue with the seater die get worse with time? What are the mechanics? What is "runout"?

Can you explain a bit more because I have been reloading for many years and I'm sure I will understand.

Migs
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Ok,
The brass will work harden the more you shoot it and will take a stay at the larger fired diameter. This will cause two things primarily. One....it will get hard to chamber your brass in the rifle and Two...the brass will either get very sticky in the seater die or won't go all the way in and cause varying seating depth.

The problem with the Forester die is it has an expander ball to run the neck back over and if this is not dead center in the die, it will cause runout....runout being the bullet being off center in the case or could be refered to as wobble. Also, since the die makes the diameter of the case mouth real small and then stretches it back out....it overworks the brass and causes more length trimming. There is two thing you can do to make this better. One...polish the expander ball (but not to much) and Two...set the headspace and center the expander ball. Sinclair international had an older handbook that explained both of these very well. How this is accomplished (and I know some on here are going to raise hell and say you have to have a thingy) is remove the expander ball from the die. Screw the die down to the shell holder and then back it away a turn. Then remove your firing pin from your bolt. Size a case and chamber it, it will probably chamber a little hard....keep screwing the sizing die down a little at a time until the bolt handle falls to about 90 degrees and takes just a little pressure to close. Lock your die there, now measure the a fired and a sized case at the shoulder and web and see how much it is being sized, you don't want to create to much headspace and this can happen if the body of the die is to big but that's rare. Then put the expander ball and stem back in the die...leave it a little loose...run the case in the die and then when you go to bring your handle up to remove the case...stop when it hits the expander ball. Keep pressure on the handle to keep pressure on the ball and then tighten the nut for the stem. This will center the ball. Also remember when you put the stem back in to keep the bottom of the ball 5mm or so above the bottom of the die so that the web in the case does not hit it. Now, any time you insert a case and/or hit the expander ball or decapping pin, then you need to reset the expander. The first step I told you will set your headspace and the second will minimize your runout at the neck. Usually after I set a die up like this and pay attention I can keep runout to .002 or less, which is good.

Now, the Full Length Type "S" die has a bushing setup which allows you to change them to vary the amount of neck tension buy how much it squezzes down the neck and do not use the expander assembly (which I still believe it comes with but also comes with a straight section that allows use of the decapping pin but does not expand the neck). When you were talking about the neck sizing not holding your bullets....do you have a bushing in the top of the die??? You need one if you don't.

This is a lot easier than it may sound, just wish I was there to show it to you. Hope I haven't confused you.

Hovis
 
Hovis has really done a

Migs said:
Hi David:

The whole length die defeats the purpose of fire forming your cases to your particular gun though... At my level of addiction, I monkey only with the case necks and mouths. (Though I have the indumentaria to do full length resizing)

Thanks for the input! -Migs
Click to expand...

great job of explaining what we are doing in the BR game when we "full length" size the cases. I want to point out that when you get into this side of the BR Central Forums, you are for the "most" part going to get very straight forward answers to your questions. Especially from those of us who do NOT hide behind handles or nicknames. That is why you had the confusion in the beginning. We simply give you the straight up answer, w/o a bunch of embellishment.

Since you are shooting a factory SAAMI chamber, a good quality FL size die, PROPERLY set up to just bump the shoulder and as a result also size the body and web, will eliminate the problem you are experiencing with your seating die. It MUST be a bushing die, whether is is Redding, RCBS, Forrester, or any other MFG. A sizing button type die will defeat the straight line true sizing that a quality bushing die can achieve.

You have just entered into the reality zone when you started asking for true BR information. Unfortunately most of what is available in the "hook and bullet" or "bullet and babe" magazines is NOT, I REPEAT, NOT worth the time and effort it takes to read it when it comes to reloading techniques or processes. Tough statement, but true to the bone.
 
Hovis:

First of all, thanks for the extended and awesome explanation. So I will get the RCBS "S" die as suggested.

David:

No worries about need for embellishment. I understand what can I opened with this question, but really, that is what I wanted to do. I do use a bushing in the Wilson die by the way, it's just that now I'm at the computer and don't remember the diameter.

Both of you:
I can shoot a 3 inch group "fairly" consistently at 230 meters, so I must be doing most things fairly well. (I recognize this may be poor by US standards where there are many dedicated people) I do know there is room to make improvements, and these will all happen with time. There is so much I have to learn, and of course, being in the 3rd world, components are difficult to come by, and sometimes we have to work with what we can find.

You are all most kind to share your know-how with me, and I'm grateful! -Migs
 
Migs,

Migs said:
Hovis:

First of all, thanks for the extended and awesome explanation. So I will get the RCBS "S" die as suggested.

David:

No worries about need for embellishment. I understand what can I opened with this question, but really, that is what I wanted to do. I do use a bushing in the Wilson die by the way, it's just that now I'm at the computer and don't remember the diameter.

Both of you:
I can shoot a 3 inch group "fairly" consistently at 230 meters, so I must be doing most things fairly well. (I recognize this may be poor by US standards where there are many dedicated people) I do know there is room to make improvements, and these will all happen with time. There is so much I have to learn, and of course, being in the 3rd world, components are difficult to come by, and sometimes we have to work with what we can find.

You are all most kind to share your know-how with me, and I'm grateful! -Migs
Click to expand...

By ALL MEANS, ask EVERY question that comes to mind, please. The only dumb question is the one unasked!!. This is the place for TRUE exchange of knowledge, at least of the firearms kind. Hell, we even solve a few life questions once in awhile.:D keep them coming.
 
Migs said:
Hovis:

First of all, thanks for the extended and awesome explanation. So I will get the RCBS "S" die as suggested.

David:

No worries about need for embellishment. I understand what can I opened with this question, but really, that is what I wanted to do. I do use a bushing in the Wilson die by the way, it's just that now I'm at the computer and don't remember the diameter.

Both of you:
I can shoot a 3 inch group "fairly" consistently at 230 meters, so I must be doing most things fairly well. (I recognize this may be poor by US standards where there are many dedicated people) I do know there is room to make improvements, and these will all happen with time. There is so much I have to learn, and of course, being in the 3rd world, components are difficult to come by, and sometimes we have to work with what we can find.

You are all most kind to share your know-how with me, and I'm grateful! -Migs
Click to expand...

Heck Migs, if your shooting that....I'll trade my reloading information for shooting information...a three inch group at 230 meters with that rifle and caliber....your diffenently on the right track. Keep up the good work and enjoy...it's better to have fun than be frustrated. I haven't seen one of those rifles since I was in Germany...nice rig. Wouldn't mind one myself.

Hovis
 
And as to the bullets just dropping into the necks on some cases you need a little more neck tension, this is best accomplished with next size smaller neck bushing.

Dick
 
Another option is to polish out a factory die for a fitted sizer. If you've got a factory FL die of any sort it is possible to make it work for your rifle.

You must find a way to "spin" your sizing die, something like a dill press laid down or a hand drill clamped to the table will suffice. Clockwise rotation.

Now you make up a sanding mandrel by cutting a slot in a piece of wood dowel approx 1/4 inch diameter, slip sandpaper into the slot and size it to fit into the die. You will drive this sanding mandrel with another motor of some sort, clockwise.

Also you might take a case and drill and thread a piece of threaded rod (cut off bolt) into the primer pocket or a case-driver like for turning necks. Find a way to spin your case. Clockwise. And you've got a fine polishing or 'lapping' mandrel. Get lapping compound from an auto parts store or machining supplier, 'Clover' is a common worldwide brand.

Now IF YOU'RE HANDY WITH TOOLING you can hone or polish out the sizer die to closely fit YOUR chamber. You can use various grits of sandpaper on your flap mandrel and various polishing grits (lapping compounds) on your spinning case and quickly turn you junk factory die into a fitted sizer. In-and-out motions to produce a 'crosshatch'. Careful to keep all surfaces flat. Don't round out your edges. Polishing or honing as much as .003/surface can be accomplished while maintaining important concentricity PROVIDED you understand how to use the tooling.

Once you've fitted the die you can turn your necks to different thicknesses to adjust neck tension......or if you're REALLY handy you can polish out the neck area too.

You must eliminate your expander ball. If you cannot get rid of it then grind it down until it doesn't touch the neck at all.

The idea is to fit your resizing die to YOUR CHAMBER so that it only sizes a thousandth or two on all dimensions.

I don't have room here to explain all of the rules and ways of successful lapping/polishing but if you've been around tooling you will either KNOW what I'm talking about or not.

al
 
alinwa:

Thanks for the extended explanation. I went ahead and bought the Redding Competition neck die set (3 dies: Neck bushing die, a Full Length body die, and Bullet seater). This is my plan so please make comments:

1. Put fired case on Redding trimmer and trim case as I clean it with Nevr-Dull cloth. The rotation on the trimmer helps make the cleaning easier.
2. Chamfer the inside of the case neck manually.
3. Polish inside of case neck with dowel/steel wool. Lube with powdered Mica brush inside of neck.
4. Lube case body on pad.
5. Full length size body (not neck), by removing expander ball portion of FL die. Depriming should occur somewhere here.
6. Use neck sizing bushing die for sizing neck.
7. Prime and fill with powder.
8. Use Wilson or other bullet seating die.

Please tell me what corrections or improvements to make.

Migs
 
Dick:

The idea of a smaller bushing seems correct, but I am hesitant since the bullets are tight with the 0.334" bushing I'm using except for one in 200 rounds. I wouldn't want to deform the bullet right?

As always thanks for the input.

Migs
 
Migs said:
Dick:

The idea of a smaller bushing seems correct, but I am hesitant since the bullets are tight with the 0.334" bushing I'm using except for one in 200 rounds. I wouldn't want to deform the bullet right?

As always thanks for the input.

Migs
Click to expand...

Well then that case has a neck thickness thinner than the other 199, if you want accuracy it should be discarded.

Dick
 
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