Williamsport Pits Rebuild - What's Going On?

[rcw3]

For the past few years I have been one of the shooters in the prone league at the Williamsport (Bodines) 1000 yard range, and I have also written Precision Shooting articles featuring the range and prone shooting at the range. I am currently a member of the club but for some reason it seems I cannot seem to get clear information on what's going on at the range. It almost seems as if there's a blackout on certain information.

Based on the information I have, it seems clear that the re-build last year of the pits created safety issues.

I have heard that there is going to be another re-building of the pits but I have also heard that this re-build will be done in a way to make it so no more prone or F Class shooting can be done at the range. If this is the case, I don't understand the logic here at all since prone and F-Class shooting is clearly on the rise and I would think a shooting club would be working to expand and improve the shooting sports.

So I guess I am looking for information here. Does anyone know what's going on?

Robert Whitley

 

[Bob Pastor]

New Pit Walls and improvements

The old wall is being replaced and many other improvements to the pits. The range at Williamsport has never been anything but safe for all the years it's been in existence. To say anything different is just a plain old lie. I've spent hundreds of hours in those pits and they are so safe, i'd take my Grand children there any day of the week.

Williamsport runs a world class range period.

Bob Pastor

 

[Wolfdawg]

Nothing has been or will be done in the pits at Williamsport to exclude anyone!

This public forum board is not the place to air your dirty laundry. If you are a member as you related, then you certainly know how to contact the president or any board member to get the answers you seek.

The "safety" issues you mention involved (in part) the method of prone shooters standing on blocks and placing plotters in the targets with their hands above the wall while others were shooting.
This has been addressed.

There are also new improvements to the pit area comming for the next season.

I certainly encourage you to contact a board member to fully understand what improvements are comming so that everyone will have a safe and enjoyable time at Williamsport!

Eric Wolfgang
Original PA 1000 yard Benchrest Shooters Club, Inc
Statistician

 

[rcw3]

Nothing has been or will be done in the pits at Williamsport to exclude anyone!

This public forum board is not the place to air your dirty laundry. . . . .

Eric Wolfgang
Original PA 1000 yard Benchrest Shooters Club, Inc
Statistician

Eric

Thanks for your response. I was just trying to find out what's going on and it seems like I "put my foot in a hornets nest". I am not aware of having any "dirty laundry" here, nor am I aware of doing anything wrong in any sense, so I do not know what you mean by this.

As far as pit safety, I personally know of two specific incidents in the pits (as they were previously constructed) that I would say called into question (in my mind) the safety of the pits (and the incidents had nothing to do with whether the person in the pits was pulling for a prone shooter, benchrest shooter, or someone else). Bob Pastor's suggestion that what I am saying can be regarded as a "lie" makes me question how well informed he is.

The reason I came on here in the first place is that there seems to be an information void on this issue. I don't see why my inquiry on this is somehow unwarranted.

Robert Whitley

 

[Wolfdawg]

No problem sir.

I just don't want to see an openly public brawl about club business, which is usually how these posts end up.

Like I said, contact one of the board members and everything can be cleared up.

I know that the club is intentially looking at the pits for renovation in a permanent manner and not just a quick fix.

Wolfdawg

 

[rcw3]

Wolfdawg

Who specifically can I contact on this that and can provide a definitive straight answer? What I am really interested in is finding out whether the pits rebuild is being done in a way that will make it so you cannot have prone and F Class matches there in the future (i.e. because of the different target boards used in prone and F Class shooting). I realize the range is pretty much controlled by the benchrest shooters, and maybe prone and F Class shooting may be of no concern to them, but that is a segment of the competitive shooting sports that is on the rise and one I participate in and write magazine articles about.

Is the club there just for the benchrest shooters or is it there to foster and promote the shooting sports as a whole? I would hope the latter.

Robert Whitley

 

[Wolfdawg]

You can log onto the we site ( www.pa1000yard.com ) and go under the contact us tab.

You can speak with the outgoing president( Joe Saltalamchia ) or some of the PR people (Matt Dienes or Mellissa Wagner).

I know that the main issue is the distance from the wall to the targets. So, 2 proposals are on the table at this point that I am aware of:
1) Since the range is actually 1022 yards, there is a proposal to move the pit back toward the benches, make it actually 1000 yards and re-build the pits from scratch so that everyone in every discipline would be able to shoot and be safe.

2) install pre-fab concrete wall panels 2 feet closer to the existing targets and install a pre-fab concrete panel roof over the pit to cover any debris.

The big discussions within the club at our last match is to make the range as safe as possible for ALL shooting disciplines. I know that the membership cherishes every shooting discipline and does not want anyone excluded. So I know that the plans to go forward are to make the pit and range safe for EVERYONE. We never had any discussion to exclude any discipline in the future. the main reason for the exclusion in the first place had to do with recomendations from the NRA inspection which mainly dealt with prone target size and ploting procedures. So, the benchresters had taken a vote to basically post pone those shooting disciplines until the range can be updated for the safety of all shooters.

Or, you can contact Joe, Frank Grappone, Matt Dienes and get it right from the horses mouth.

I am only the statistician for the club and maintain that the shooting sport in general does not need any in-fighting, but solidarity in the face of all of the anti's out there trying to put an end to all of our sport! So the more shooters we have, the stronger we are as a shooting society!
Wolfdawg

 

[rcw3]

Wolfdawg

Here's where I am coming from

I only know what I heard, but I heard that because the target boards for prone shooting were bigger than used for the benchrest shooters, that meant they protruded up higher (when pulled down in the pits) and people had to reach higher to mark shots thereby possibly putting their hands (or whatever else) possibly in harms way (especially when considering the angle bullets are coming in bound at 1000 yards).

I was told this was the logic for why the prone shooters were told they could no longer shoot at Williamsport/Bodines but the Benchrest shooters continued shooting.

My interest is whether prone and F Class shooting at Williamsport/Bodines is now forever gone (which would indeed be very unfortunate) and if it isn't, whether there will be a legitimate concern about the safety of me going into the pits or of me sending one of my sons down there to pull targets.

I certainly hope that whoever is in charge will do the right thing in all respects - there is too much at stake for all of us.

Robert Whitley

 

[milanuk]

Robert,

If that is the actual concern... would going to the alternative method 'B' for scoring work? All the scoring disc positions (other than 'M'iss) are below the waterline of the target, pretty much for that reason. There still may be some issues if a shooter is putting wild shots up near the top of the target frame (still have to reach up there to put the spotter/paster in place) but it greatly reduces the exposure for anything else (i.e. 6's or 7's due to missed wind calls).

HTH,

Monte

 

[USSR]

As I am also a participant for many years in prone/F Class shooting at Williamsport, I also share Mr. Whitley's concerns as to whether disciplines other than benchrest are in the future at Williamsport. As a member of the club, the various match reports that I have received to date have not addressed this issue at all.

Don Kakretz

 

[rcw3]

Robert,

If that is the actual concern... would going to the alternative method 'B' for scoring work? All the scoring disc positions (other than 'M'iss) are below the waterline of the target, pretty much for that reason. There still may be some issues if a shooter is putting wild shots up near the top of the target frame (still have to reach up there to put the spotter/paster in place) but it greatly reduces the exposure for anything else (i.e. 6's or 7's due to missed wind calls).

HTH,

Monte

Monte

I would think if the pits are being re-done, the pits could be constructed in a way to accommodate benchrest shooting as well as prone and F-Class shooting, unless a pit design has been selected that precludes anything but benchrest.

Robert Whitley

 

[Yukon Kid]

Robert C. WhitleyIII, ESQ.(rcw3) - the lawyer ????

A google of this name comes up with multiple listings, mostly about a lawyer with offices in Doylestown, Landsdale, Blue Bell, and Quackertown, are you "one and the same" ???? Peter E. Flisock a.k.a. Yukon Kid

 

[rcw3]

A google of this name comes up with multiple listings, mostly about a lawyer with offices in Doylestown, Landsdale, Blue Bell, and Quackertown, are you "one and the same" ???? Peter E. Flisock a.k.a. Yukon Kid

Peter - thanks for the plug, but I feel like I am on the receiving end of a bunch of negative political campaign ads:

Bob Pastor hops on after my original post and suggests that what I said in my posting can be regarded as a "lie"

Wolfdawg jumps on and says I am airing my "dirty laundry"

Now you want to make a public forum issue of what I do for a living.

I am a member of the Williamsport club, just as I am of many other clubs, and I am the lawyer for, and on the board of, a number of gun clubs (yes I do work to protect and defend shooters rights, gun clubs and gun rights, even went down the the US Supreme Court in Wash D.C. this year for the Heller case). I also have NRA High Master Classifications for Across the Course , Mid Range and Long Range Shooting, and I also am a staff writer for Precision Shooting Magazine and contribute regularly to the 6mmBR.com website. I have also been qualified and testified in court as an expert witness in gun cases and also run an accuracy rifle business (see www.6mmAR.com).

Now how about we get back on the subject of whether Williamsport is doing a pit rebuild to allow the prone and F-Class shooters to continue to shoot there.

Robert Whitley

 

[mike in co]

for those with limited experience, time on this board and limit thier reading to commercial gun rags, robert is one of those members that provides positive feedback on this and other forums.

questioning his ethics is out pf place.

mike in co

 

[oneflyer]

What's going on??????

The Original Pennsylvania 1000 Yard Bench Rest Club. The emphasis on Bench Rest says it all.
How did we get where we are today?
On May 10th the Bodine Prone League conducted a match at the range. I was there since we had a bench rest school that day. I am the Vice President of the club and the Assistant Rangemaster. In addition, Joe Saltalamachia was there, he is the President of the club. We had at least two other board members at the range that day. I tell you all of this because after we had returned home the following week, we received a letter from the the President and the Vice President of the club saying that unsafe practices were happening at the range during THEIR match. They suggested a safety inspection be preformed by the NRA because of recent improvements made by the parent club. A membership meeting was held at the next regularly scheduled match with the members of the 1000 yard club. The membership voted not to allow the prone league to shoot at the club. There are a number of reasons for that vote which I will go into later in this post. The NRA inspection was conducted in late June and a report was isuued to the club in mid July. Some recommendations were made to the club based on the NRA's range construction book. However one salient point- the NRA inspector stated flatly that the use of the larger prone league target is unsafe and until the range was rebuilt to accommodate that target, prone shooting should not be conducted at the range. I'm consolidating the verb age but that's the essence.
Why did the membership vote the prone league off the range?
1. They were not good steward's of the range. The work parties for the range were a place you could never find a prone shooter. They left the targets broken and never told anyone. They used our equipment for the conducting their matches and on several occasions we had to replace the equipment at the club's expense.
2. THEY had safety issues and they wanted us to resolve them. Hands, hats and heads above the pit wall is an issue that you resolve NOW not report it for later resolution.
3. Because of the prone league and across the course shooters, the range was in use every weekend and regular club members never had access to the range.
4. The expense to maintain the range because of the aforementioned use and damages by the prone shooters was not conducive to prolonging the relationship.

The improvements at the range are items that are maintenance related and have been under discussion for years. They are being done to improve the experience for bench rest shooters. Are the prone shooters out forever? I can't say, but if they want to shoot at the Original Pennsylvania Bench Rest Club they will probably have to go to the membership, hat in hand and tell them how they will conduct themselves and convince the membership to vote them back in.
As a footnote- I and the entire board of directors have always been available for discussion on this item. I don't recall a message from anyone via email related to this subject only posts on chat forums which appear to me as an effort to embarrass the club and its membership. Another example of why the resentment felt by the membership toward some members of the prone league. Hopefully we can take this discussion to another level and accommodate a shooting discipline in the future as we as a club have always encouraged the great shooting sport.

 

[rcw3]

oneflyer

Well that posting certainly makes clear where you are on the subject! If that is how the board, officers and membership of the club feels then it seems clear that prone and F-Class shooting is gone at Williamsport. I hope and believe there are those that do not share your views.

Please bear in mind that a fair number of the F-Class and prone shooters at the prone league matches at Williamsport were the same benchrest shooters that always did and still do shoot at your range, so the "us" and "them" line you are drawing is not as clear as you suggest. I remember shooting with the Hoovers, Mark King, Tom Murtiff, Tom Delovich and his wife, Bob Sankey and a number of other benchrest shooters at various prone league matches. If you are saying us prone shooters are bad stewards of the club, then you are also pointing the finger at some of your own benchrest shooters.

Let's be honest with everyone here on one issue - the current new pit re-build is being done because there were safety problems with the just completed re-build, and it has nothing to do with anything other than that. If people want to blame the prone and F-Class shooters for bringing the safety problems to the forefront, that's their choice, but the NRA report on the range safety is not limited to prone shooting safety, it is for the safety of everyone in the pits no matter what event is taking place. Heck, why would the club even be doing the pits over again now if after just completing a re-build it was safe for benchrest shooting? It is the right thing to do to complete a safer re-build of the pits, and the club and board should be applauded for "stepping up to the plate" on that.

If I have to be the lightning rod for the anger and frustration of the some to get some straight answers and productive discussions going, then so be it. Like it or not we're all a part of the same community and it would be a lot better for all if we work together toward the common objective of promoting the good of the shooting sports (which is really what the By Laws of the club are about - not just benchrest shooting).

Robert Whitley

P.S. I have also attached the portion of the bylaws which talks about the objective of the club.

 

[oneflyer]

You state opinions as fact where there are none.
1. There was no "rebuild" of the pits. We installed new target frames.
2. There were no safety issues with the pits for bench rest shooting.
3. You don't know where I stand regarding the prone shooters at the range. I stated the position of the voting members.
4. I say again the rebuild of the pits was an ongoing project that has been under discussion for years. We did take into consideration the recommendation of the NRA inspector. The rebuilt pits will still not accommodate the prone target.
5. The conduct of the prone league and its shooters were always an issue with the main club.
6. You've taken more time in composing and posting comments on this forum than ever taken at a work party for "your" club as was typical of the prone shooters. This and those actions probably had more to do with the membership vote than anything else.

 

[rcw3]

oneflyer

Thanks for the reply. I don't know why you post anonymously and will not put your true name on your postings, especially in view of the nature of your statements.

Since putting these postings up I have received multiple e-mails, pm's and other communications by members of the club who are upset. Some items of mention:

1. There were members of the club prone league at every work party detail;

2. The prone league was never advised by the club that any damages were ever done to any club property by the prone league, nor was any reimbursement ever mentioned or requested;

3. The prone league paid for all their own targets, equipment and other items and only made use of the club target carriers.

Your last posting makes it clear the rebuild is being done in a way to preclude prone and F-Class targets, so it seems like that's what those in charge of the club wish to do (at least at this point). Thanks for you blunt honesty here.

I spent a fair amount of time at the range not only participating in events, but also working actively to promote the club and its facilities in the magazine articles I wrote that were published in Precision Shooting. I feel a sense of loss that things have gone where they have and where they appear to be going.

Robert Whitley

 

[oneflyer]

1. Name one member of the prone league who has been at a work party and worked on anything other than repairing their own targets. The first work party this year, they were gone by 10:15 and we could not mount the target carriers on the new target frames because everyone had left. I've been at every work party for a number of years and have NEVER seen a prone league shooter lift one shovel of dirt in support of the club.
2. You are right. Nothing has ever been said by the host club of damages done by the prone league to the targets or equipment. Did we have to? Responsible officers of the club should have noted the items and repair or replaced the items.
3. As far as the repairs being made for bench rest only- the costs are very high. Monies spent will come from the bench rest club funds. The $600 or so contributed by the prone league hardly justifies the expenditures of any more money to accommodate the prone league. from what I've seen I do not see how we could make the repairs and accommodate the large prone targets.

Who am I? As I stated previously, I am the Vice President and Assistant Rangemaster at the club. Anyone who shoots and is active at the club knows who I am. Its even on my license plate.

 

[rcw3]

Who am I? As I stated previously, I am the Vice President and Assistant Rangemaster at the club. Anyone who shoots and is active at the club knows who I am. Its even on my license plate.

I know your name, your phone number and where you live and a lot more about you but it's not my place to put your personal information on a public forum posting (as someone tried to do to me here on this thread). If you want to stay behind a forum handle and not have readers know who you are that's up to you. I just don't understand why you won't take credit for what you have posted and put your name on your writings and postings as I have done.

Like I said, if I am the lightning rod for everyones anger and frustration on this matter, I will happily accept that job if it will advance the cause.

Be well and shoot well!

Robert Whitley