Why do I shoot so many 1 shot flier groups ?

M

Marine sniper

Guest
I hang out on this forum pretty often trying to pick up tips from the most accurate shooters to help improve my own long range shooting.

I have a 300 Wby that is capable of very good accuracy, but when I shoot groups at 100 yards I more often than not have a shot kicked out of the group. The same things happens when I shoot 300.

The rifle is a custom rig I built several years ago but have only been shooting it a lot the last couple of years.

Mk5 action.
Turn neck 300 Wby (.332) neck. I have been shooting with .001-.0015 NK clearance.

There does not seem to be much of a pattern of when or where I will kick one out, but I will have 2 very close .25 or better and then one out .5-.75 (100 yards)

Here is a typical target, this one is a 300 yards. If I can get those fliers out of the mix I have a very accurate long range hunting rig.

Any ideas?
rangereport7-12.JPG


Thanks,
John
 
John..there is a list of things that can give you those "one shot" fliers...

Wind/mirage conditions - failure to read the conditions correctly
Gun handling - gun is not consistant from shot to shot
Neck tension - brass needs annealing
Bullet/twist - the barrel twist and bullet are not compatible
Powder - the powder burn rate is not optimum for the case/bullet
Loading errors - the loading dies are not making straight/concentric loads
the seating depth is wrong
Scope POI shift - the scope may not be holding its setting/POI
Primer ignition - the firing pin is not hitting the primer with consistant pressure
 
Check the fit, check the.........

pad, sometimes a thicker pad, like a 1" Decelerator is a big, BIG help. Also, see if you can find a more protected place to shoot, such as a straight lane down through the woods. How much time are you allowing between shots?? You're dumping, what, 75-80Gr. of powder down there per shot?? I used to wait at least two minutes between shots developing loads for the .300Wby, as it doesn't take long to warm that one up. I'd always try to build groups up w/cool or slightly warm barrels because if you need to, you'll only get two shots at any living target, maybe three if its unfortunate that day, so you want to try the group shooing in more realistic situations. You also might want to check your brass to make sure all of it is set up to your standards. All said and done?? The fact remains that, maybe you've had all you can enjoy before these problems manifest themselves. You might try a slip-on pad, too. Install it on the shooter, to check for fit and performance.......you may see a dividend, y'never know, might work. ;) HTH
 
Lots of good ideas....I will look into a few.

I think my problem may be the neck clearance is not enough. The neck in this chamber is .332 and my loaded rounds are at .3315. I have some brass I prepped today that is .330.
 
Marine a sinple question, are you using a scope level?
 
John,

I'll bet you have answered your own question. Half a thou will give you lots of trouble. On long range bench guns I think 1% of neck diameter is about right. By that rule of thumb, for your Weatherby, 0.003" total would be about as tight as I would want. The exact amount of clearance is less important than consistence in all your cases. In a field gun you can happily run twice the neck clearance I suggested.

Greg
 
For everyone firing three shot groups!

Here's a little "test" you can do. You draw your own conclusions.

Take a deck of cards and draw three cards. Note how you will nearly always get two close in value, while one will be far away from these two.
 
Marine Sniper--

The examples in your notebook do not show what I believe you are trying to show. That is, a tight group and one out.

There's some variation, but not the "flyer" situation you describe.

I will just include one target which I believe shows a clear-cut situation with one flyer and the remainder pretty tight.

Don't mean to give offense, but I don't see this pattern in what you are showing us.
 

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I think I can see the pattern he is referring to. My first suggestion is to use a smaller bullseye. One which is almost completely covered by the cross hairs.
My second guess is technique. I'm not suggesting you have a bad technique but are you shooting enough that your bench technique is repeatable? It ain't as much fun as live fire but there is still a lot to be said for dry fire practice if you want to improve your bench technique. And you can do that on the kitchen table.
 
John, a couple things I didn't think of.............

yesterday. Have you had that scope looked at recently, you didn't specify which it was, but no matter, it could easily have gone South on you :eek:. You also might want to try targets that are ONLY black and white. I notice you have some w/red on them, and I have found that red tends to "bleed" over the reticle, causing it to become indistinct. What I use is the Leupold Sighting-In Target. It is marked off in a one inch grid, and has 4 2" x 2" black squares on it. Try to mount it as squarely as possible on your backer. I've found that if you're trying to develop loads or shoot groups under 400 yds., this target is the one to use (for ME!). What I do, is put the horizontal wire along the lower edge of the block, and the vertical wire on the left edge of the block. I have the scope adjusted so that my POI is not near my point of aim. I start at the lower left corner of the lower left square, then move up to the upper left square, then the upper right, then the lower right square, shooting separate groups at each square. I do it that way because it seems that if you go clockwise it accesses the brain's center for logic. Many shooters I've introduced to this target remark that not only does it make sense, but they believe it helps them shoot better groups with their hunting guns, as it allows them to get a better, and tighter, "hold" on the target, since the eye isn't moving all around a big bull's eye, trying to divide it into equidistant quadrants. Just watch a much smaller area, at the corner of the block. If you try it out, let me know how you make out, and what you think. Those targets were made by Outers, which is now part of ATK, so I don't know where you'd start, probably Speer, for bulk orders. You may have to get your local dealer to pick up a couple packs to see if they work for you, they used to come 12 to a pack. ;)
 
Have some one else shot your rifle to see if it continues to happen.
 
I have been out testing twice since the original post. It seems I have solved the problem by going to .002-.0025 clearance.

Thanks for the help guys.

John
 
shooting

this is interesting reading as i like to play around with 22r b/r in my backyard. i have problems being consistant. i have tracked it down to cant so i am installing a leval on all my b/r rifles.

i didnt know about practicing on your kitchen table if someone wants to go into that for me.

i use either leupold or weaver 36 s on my rifles so i know that is not the problem.

these suggestions and notes are very good and thanks for the posts.

just a beginner

bob
 
Always look for the condition you messed up the shot in. When you have one out, it's condition related, yep, you missed seeing the condition change. How do I know this????:D
 
practicing at your kitchen table

is just a variation of dry firing. You just set up in the basement or where-ever and practice your bench technique, or, if you're a hunter, your field positions. Put a porportional sized bullseye on the wall somewhere and aim at it.
You can learn a lot as you can see where the cross hairs are actually pointed when the hammer falls without the disturbance of recoil from a live round. If the cross hairs move when you pull the trigger or when the hammer falls, then you need to do some work on your technique.
It is certainly cost effective. If you have misgivings about dropping a firing pin on an empty chamber, they make snap caps just for that purpose. I don't know about bench guns but I've been doing it to Rem sporters for 50 years without a problem.
If you're a new shooter or don't get to the range as often as you like, practicing dry firing a few times when you first sit down can tighten up your groups for the day.
 
?????

Why does no one posting to this thread understand how three shot groups form? If the group is over about .5" then there will nearly always be one shot that appears "out" of the group.

What do you think the odds are you will form a group where all holes are equally spaced from one another? Even if the group appears as a neat triangle you can pick one shot as being a "flier".

I noticed no one picked up on my post on cards. No one seems to believe if you put three holes in a target that two holes will nearly always be close together and one hole will be away from these two holes.

You aren't shooting 1/4" groups with a flier 1/2" out of group, you are shooting 1/2" groups! You won't correct this "problem" by "pulling in the flier", you will correct it when you begin to shoot smaller groups!
 
So just exactly shoots three shot groups, what are they suppose to tell you? Five, five shot groups tell the tell of the rifle, the individual and the load.
 
I only read a few posts and many good ideas.

My question would be:

What shot is the flier-2nd or 3rd. Someone here could analize-as mentioned-hot barrel suspect esp if 3 rd.
 
shooting

well i fooled around today on the KITCHEN table no les with my pappas rest and the rifle on it.

as i levaled the rifle i found my scope was on crooked dumb huh?. anyway its interestign to watch all the activety after firing a shot and recocking the rifle.

there certainly is a lot to watch out for just getting ready for the shot.

thanks for the tips ive had a good good day!

bob
 
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