Why are we not better today than 20 years ago

James A. Kelbly

New member
I was looking at the Cactus program, IBS records, NBRSA records, Super Shoot records, and other match records and I see over half the records were shot in the 70's, 80's and early 90's. With todays better optics, bullets barrels, stocks, and most of all better shooters as far as I can see, so why are we not shooting as small as in the past. Sure there are new records every year in IBS and NBRSA, but why are we not seeing these old records fall.

Does anyone have any explanation or reason for this?

Jim
 
More difficult conditions?

It is a known fact that we have global warming now and we did not way back then. There is more wind and hot air all over now.:)

Others may have different ideas.

Concho Bill
 
inspite of (potentially)better equiptment, rules that limit the need to experiment, that support lemmings, and the cost of the game would be some of my guesses.

the other way to look at it, is that with better equiptment we have more better shooters....lots of people that shoot very well....so is this better when then when only a few would shoot well ??

mike in co
 
Benchrest records...

Mr. Kelbly....I think it has to do with the mindset of "you don't have to shoot any little groups,just don't shoot any big groups" and "agg 'em to death". Aggregates are averages and that's what you get-the best average shooter for that event! I think short range benchrest(100/200/300yd) has gotten away from the original intent-who can shoot the smallest group at a given time/event.
The records ARE being broken at long range(600yd/1000yd) because more attention has to be paid to details.
I think we should shoot maybe 3 5 shot groups and take your best group as your score. I think you'd see the group sizes shrink dramatically because more attention would HAVE to be paid to details.
Just my thoughts on the subject.
 
Benchrest records

Maybe because the people that shot all those records or the same ones shooting today, and man we or getting older and can't see as well. Where dieing breed you know.:D
 
It is a known fact that we have global warming now and we did not way back then. There is more wind and hot air all over now.:)

Others may have different ideas.

Concho Bill

Bill,

That was my very first thought. I know here in NC the wind seems to always blow now, rarely a day that it does not. Many years ago I can remember numerous days when it was deathly still. Shooting longe range as I do there is rarely a day when we say wow, these are great conditions. Even 10-12 years ago I recall there being better conditions.

I wonder if there is historical NWS data on the average wind velocity.

Joel
 
inspite of (potentially)better equiptment, rules that limit the need to experiment, that support lemmings, and the cost of the game would be some of my guesses.

the other way to look at it, is that with better equiptment we have more better shooters....lots of people that shoot very well....so is this better when then when only a few would shoot well ??

mike in co

Mike,

Have you ever competed in a U/L regional event with your AR's. Wouldn't they be legal in the U/L class if you loaded them one round at a time?

Can they agg with a "state of the art" BR rig? I own a Colt Elite and I am very interested as to how well a tricked out AR would perform at a real BENCHREST match...

Vic
 
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Shooting small

Out here in the West is all I know so pardon my ignorance. All of our ranges out here have burms and high sides that make any breeze at all swirl instead of having an open range with consistant breeze. I believe that makes for a little more challenge to shoot small. I may be way off because I have only been shooting for a couple of years. I don't know what the ranges use to look like.

Or Global Waming.


Marty

:(
 
Jim ...

I was looking at the Cactus program, IBS records, NBRSA records, Super Shoot records, and other match records and I see over half the records were shot in the 70's, 80's and early 90's. With todays better optics, bullets barrels, stocks, and most of all better shooters as far as I can see, so why are we not shooting as small as in the past. Sure there are new records every year in IBS and NBRSA, but why are we not seeing these old records fall.

Does anyone have any explanation or reason for this?

Jim

I believe it's the emphasis on aggregate scores. The notion that very small groups are not indicative of overall competency.

Here's a perfect example:

Speedy Gonzalez
Win, lose or draw, Super Shoot 2005 will be memorable for gunsmith Speedy Gonzalez. This year he will be inducted into the Benchrest Hall of Fame, an honor he tells us really gives him a great sense of accomplishment: "Over the years, I looked up to the Hall of Famers--they are the gurus of the sport. There are less than forty guys now in the Hall of Fame, and it is just a great honor to be counted among them."

Now that he's joined the ranks of BR "gurus", we asked Speedy if he had any nuggets of wisdom for novice competitors at the Super Shoot. Speedy replied: "Watch the 60-70 yard flags--that's where the whole story's told, for both 100- and 200-yard matches. That little stretch dictates the way you've got to shoot.

And don't get obsessed with shooting ultra-small groups. Shoot steady, 'safe' groups and you'll do OK. 'Shoot not to lose' is the way to approach this match. It's all about the Agg. I concentrate on the Big Trophy at the end."

Source: http://www.6mmbr.com/Supershoot2005.html :)
 
Jim,

Average aggregates are actually getting smaller overall, but in recent years falling at a pretty slow rate. I think most of it can be explained by the law of diminishing returns. Years ago when the average aggregate was say a .370" it is relatively easy to see that aggregates can get smaller as the shooters and equipment improve. The problem is that as the groups and aggregates go into the "ones" it is harder to get them smaller. There were hot shooters in decades past that set records. Heck, Pat McMillan's .1605" LV100 IBS aggregate record set in 1978 was only broken in 2008! What you may want to examine is what the average shooter is doing.

I don't have the data, but a telling statistic would be the number of teen aggs shot in a per year in, say the last 30 years. That would be a simple snapshot or bellwether of the level of accuracy that is showing up on the targets year-by-year.

Jim, another interesting examination would be the average 2-gun agg shot at your Super Shoot. Averaging 300 to 400 shooters' performances at each SS over many years at the same range would be real interesting...my guess is the trend line would look a lot like the one attached.

Directly below is a post I made a couple of years ago. Please check out the attached .xls spreadsheets. I think the trend lines are interesting and bear out my comment above.

jks

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(post from 2005)
"I have an outlook on benchrest akin to Rip Van Winkle in that I shot from 1976 to 1986, then got back in the game in 2003. Despite the long hiatus, I did manage to keep all my shoot reports-and they are pretty interesting. Over several evenings, I pored over the data and was able to create a spreadsheet showing the winning and median aggregates for LV and HV 100, 200 and grands, as well as the 2-gun aggregates. I used the median rather than average to represent "Joe Shooter" in the middle of the pack-the top of the bell curve.

The "shrinking aggregates.xls" file is solely for shoots I attended starting in the Southeast Region of the NBRSA since I lived in GA in the early days. In late 1977 I moved to PA, so the rest of the data is primarily IBS with a number of Super Shoots thrown in. The chart in the spreadsheet is for HV100 only. The second file is the IBS Champion multi-gun aggregates from 1970 through 2005, and is "IBS Champion Aggregates.xls". This data was secured from the IBS website. You Excel wonks can play with the data all you want to develop better charts.

Here are my general observations:

::There was a paradigm shift in this game from 1977 to 1978. In '77 at the NBRSA Nationals the HV Top 20 showed one 22PPC and a solitary 6PPC. Fast forward a mere 12 months. At the 1978 IBS Nationals HV competition had 18 6PPCs in the top twenty and one 22PPC! A die hard with a 223/45 came in 20th place. If you examine the data there is a decided drop in aggregates at the same time.

::Teen aggs were quite rare in the mid 70's. If shot, they were usually records. In fact, Pat McMillan's .1605 LV 100 aggregate shot at the 1978 IBS Nationals still stands. By the early to mid-80's teen aggs, although not common, did pop up with much more regularity.

::I have heard that it is getting harder to win in this game. The data seems to support that statement. Although small, the trend is for the difference between the winning aggregate and the median to get smaller...albeit slowly.

::IMHO, the 6PPC is the single greatest contributor to the shrinking aggregate. The "standard" system of a stiff, straight action glued into a synthetic stock with a shortish stainless steel match barrel came into being in the early 70's, but it wasn't until the late 70's and early 80's that the real shrinking of the aggregates really started to happen. As in most things in this sport, this statement is open for debate.

::One more observation: Many of the aggs shot from, say 1982 on, have been pretty darn good. Nevertheless, if you look at the plot of the IBS Champions' multi-gun aggs you will see a lower plateau under .250" starting in the early 90's.

::I will leave it up to the rest of you to argue the relative merits of the shooter's ability to tune and the myriad of incremental improvements in barrels, bullets, stocks, actions, et. al. Maybe enough fodder to fill up the winter that is around the corner."

I have also reposted the two accompanying .xls files. In the 2005 thread, I think it was Jerry Sharrett, mentioned the more universal use of windflags became popular in the late 70s. That was a very important advance.

Oh, I miss the days of a couple of range-owned wind socks providing the condition input.... Guess that is why it doesn't bother me when the the third flag in the line is 1.4 inches too high and .64 inches left of the vector measured by a 278 degree azimuth from the left shoulder of a right-handed shooter. For a left-handed shooter the numbers are reversed, except in the southern hemishphere...LOL."
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Attachments

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  • IBS Champion Aggregates-1.xls
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This truth still applies....

Ninety nine percent of the final score of ANY match is still the shooters talent; not the latest equipment.;)

virg
 
over half the records were shot in the 70's, 80's and early 90's.

Does anyone have any explanation or reason for this?



There is a very simple explanation - those were the "good ol' days" and everyone knows that things were better back in the "good ol' days".

LOL - drover
 
Also kind of makes me wonder if all the "scope problems" are real or perceived. They shot all those records with the scopes of the era. No March, no fixed reticles, no super adjustable mounts..........
 
Wow

Jeff, That was the best collection of data and explanation of it that I have seen on this subject. One attaboy for that one my friend. Unfortunately your conclusions are wrong. I have the real reason we seem not to have advanced and the answer to Jim's question. It came from a reply I received from our federal government in response to a copy of Jim's e-mail. It read " It was George Bush's fault." Tim
 
Have there been huge advances in metallurgy over the past 20 years? That's a big part of things... We're basically shooting the same equipment that was introduced 20 years or so ago - there haven't been that many "sea change" changes/improvements. Scopes may be a bit more reliable, and have better glass and more magnification, but that's about the most major thing. IMHO, it's a matter of "we've got to squeeze the last bit out" and to do that, we're going to have to bring in the hydraulics.

I think that step 1 should be redefining "Sporter." It was instituted to get people shooting something other than a .22. Well, now I'd guess that 80%+ of folks are shooting the 6PPC... Turn "Sporter" into a lighter rifle, maybe 9.5#, something like that. Make it a "weight of the rifle" stipulation, not a caliber stipulation. Makes sense when you look at LV and HV.

I think that heavier bag guns - say a sub-20# class - could be interesting.

Make Unlimited -really- unlimited. Allow magazines, semi-autos, whatever, with the only stipulation being no muzzle brakes and no slinging brass beyond the edge of your bench.
 
Jim, I wonder…

I wonder if the “records” system as a whole needs scrutinizing for improvement – from measuring, to committee make-up, to logistics of dealing with targets.

I know of several potential records from the NW and other regions in the last several years that did not make the cut. I have heard of prolonged evaluation process and lost targets. These types of issues should not be a happening in a sport that has had the opportunity to mature over 30-40 years. As the incremental improvements get smaller, we need to have a system in place that is efficient, independent and up-to-date.

Mustafa
 
I think I know why...

I was looking at the Cactus program, IBS records, NBRSA records, Super Shoot records, and other match records and I see over half the records were shot in the 70's, 80's and early 90's. With todays better optics, bullets barrels, stocks, and most of all better shooters as far as I can see, so why are we not shooting as small as in the past. Sure there are new records every year in IBS and NBRSA, but why are we not seeing these old records fall.

Does anyone have any explanation or reason for this?

Jim

It's because shooters are not on steroids or other performance enhancing drugs. (Unlike most pro athletes...)
 
I know back 5 years ago Canadians got 50% off of their groups, now we only get 20%, maybe that has something to do with it?? EH!:p
 
I so why are we not shooting as small as in the past. Sure there are new records every year in IBS and NBRSA, but why are we not seeing these old records fall.

Does anyone have any explanation or reason for this?

Jim

Buncha old farts that can't see anymore!!! Hell, at 200 at Dublin when Micky's CD said check your compeditor number I couldn't even see the lable, let alone the numbers on it!

I have the for real answer but I can't tell you just now!!! Fact!!!!
 
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