Which tools needed nxt & SUPER RCBS deal!

C

CHRPC78

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After reading some comments and opinions about the “new guy” entries in the forum, let me just say that I know enough about reloading and precision to know that I don’t know enough about it for what I am trying to do. I am motivated but do not yet have the skill level I think I need. :confused:

I bought a .222 Rem 700 BDL HBVar in 1974 and shot under 400 test rounds on paper for a few years. I did what I thought was the basic stuff, uniformed the flashhole and p pocket, trimmed the cases, and sorted the cases by weighing, and weighed powder charges. Some loads were FL resized with Lyman dies and some neck sized only with Hornady Neck size dies. My best record book entries show 5-6 five shot groups of 20.0 gr/IMR 4198 from .4 to .9, C-C, with Hornady 52gr HP match shot by before 1980's. The other 350 test loads were up to 2.8 MOA at 100. Chamber, fired, sized and expanded neck dimensions have not yet been recorded.

One reader wrote that he would not spend time or money (for precision tools) on a factory chamber and barrel.

Well, I know my set up is not BR quality but I have to start somewhere and this is what I have to start with. :eek: Hopefully, the 1/2-1" groups can be made more consistent or smaller with some better tooling. My wind doping ability never got above poor; I don't think I have enough bench time. Based on what I have read from your forum, my need-to-have tool list is below:

1. Hornady OAL gauge and bullet comparator. (COAL only used so far.)
2. Lee Collet sizing die. Several comments said use Collet size die for factory chamber and comp size die for custom chamber.
3. RCBS Competiton seating die. I think this may be a good option for me. RCBS currently has a $10 on line coupon for $50 purchase. :) RCBS also told me I can get 30-06 die parts to convert the same comp seating die for about $25. :):):) (The older gray Comp dies in a wooden block are NOT interchangeable to different calibers per RCBS. Several tru BR shooters I spoke with did not know about the parts interchange.)
4. K&M neck turner. I have 100 rnds of sorted R-P brass left, fired 1-3 times. I may be able to find someone who can turn a few cases for me to see if this helps.
5. I have a dial indicator and some machinist setup posts/arms/block etc. I may be able to make some sort of tray to lay the case/round in to determine runout. Maybe I can mount a mandrel to measure neck wall thickness since I do not have a ball mic at this time.:eek:

Am I on the right track or do I need to do something different? I thank you in advance for sharing your knowledege and experience. :)
 
Hokey Dokey..... Remember that these are opinions. GOOD opinions :D from someone who's walked (crawled/tottered/stumbled and ran) the same exact road. from factory to ???? In my case I've gone all the way to the top of the heap on guns and equipment, keeping heaps and piles of notes and trying to learn the WHY of accuracy.

I will disagree with a lot of your ideas. :)

Firstly, "you need more bench time." I disagree......While this is true in a theoretical sense it's most certainly NOT true that you just need to learn to shoot smaller groups. To illustrate my point, I've set down probably 20-40 people behind accurate equipment and watched as they shot 1/4" (or smaller) groups right off the get-go. Most of all though, they shot FLAT groups. A raggedy caterpillar group is showing wind dispersion. A scattered shotgun blast is showing equipment dispersion. Under good conditions a complete neophyte can shoot pinhole groups on good equipment.

But the best shooter using windflags cannot make an inaccurate rifle perform.

My guess is that your groups are shotgun blast shaped, random, not caterpillar shaped.

You need GOOD bench time. Just bench time is worse than useless, it's a waste of time and money. To get GOOD bench time you must be working with GOOD equipment.


Soooooo, you've got equipment issues.

Now I'm gonna' tell you something that the others haven't. IMO your equipment list is not going to help.

!!

Let me explain (keeping in mind that I already own all of the tools mentioned and rarely use them :) )

IN MY OPINION the single biggest thing working against you is the fit of your loaded rounds. The gun will do what it's capable of, probably honest 1/2" to 3/4" groups provided it's bedded and free-floated properly. You on the other hand will be able to shoot tiny one-hole groups given an accurate rifle setup AND a nice day condition-wise... ("conditions" means wind, mirage, falls of fish or reptiles, etc...) but the importance of FIT OF YOUR LOADED ROUNDS cannot be over-emphasized.

The best rifle in the world will shoot doggy with poor ammo. Rarely do folks with good rifles take the time to test this but poor ammunition fit guarantees poor accuracy.

Now, your job is to produce good fit. Not "straight," not "consistent" nor "concentric," that can all come later..... but FITTED is key. (Once you understand FITTED you see that it over-rides all the others.)

So I'm gonna copy/paste your list and approach point-by-point.



1. Hornady OAL gauge and bullet comparator. (COAL only used so far.)

Of no use. Instead spend your money on a set of calipers and a Sinclair Ogive "nut." Set your bullets out to just touch the lands if possible. Here it must be noted that knowing the measurements isn't even necessary. You can just seat a bullet 'long' and let the rifle itself push it into the case for jamset. Now take the round out carefully and set your seater die from this round.

2. Lee Collet sizing die. Several comments said use Collet size die for factory chamber and comp size die for custom chamber.

Generally this is accurate information although the proper fix is to make rounds with thicker necks. Necks thick enough to cut down the radial clearance common to factory chambers. Remember that the second function of the neck is to act as a guiding bushing which keeps the bullet straight as it's HAMMERED into the rifling lands.


3. RCBS Competiton seating die. I think this may be a good option for me. RCBS currently has a $10 on line coupon for $50 purchase. RCBS also told me I can get 30-06 die parts to convert the same comp seating die for about $25. (The older gray Comp dies in a wooden block are NOT interchangeable to different calibers per RCBS. Several tru BR shooters I spoke with did not know about the parts interchange.)

IMO you will be equally well served with the absolute cheapest seating die you can find.

4. K&M neck turner. I have 100 rnds of sorted R-P brass left, fired 1-3 times. I may be able to find someone who can turn a few cases for me to see if this helps.

Again, of no help regarding FIT... turning necks thinner only increases the tolerance in the critical neck area. Note that the bullet WILL be slammed against one side or the other as it enters the lands. Inbore yaw will equal the amount of neck clearance (slop or play) present in your setup.

5. I have a dial indicator and some machinist setup posts/arms/block etc. I may be able to make some sort of tray to lay the case/round in to determine runout. Maybe I can mount a mandrel to measure neck wall thickness since I do not have a ball mic at this time.

It is my opinion that making perfectly straight rounds which do not FIT is wasting time. The case WILL swell out to match your chamber..... before the bullet leaves the case.




In my opinion if you want your rifle to shoot it's best the cheapest way is to buy a "neck size only" die. Let the round fireform to your chamber and size only the neck from there on out. GREASE YOUR BOLT LUGS A LOT!!! because rounds fitted this way will eventually go in tight.

Next step is to make your cases from something else larger, in your case your only option is the .222 Rem mag, in the hope of finding thicker necks.

Final step is to find a properly fitting resizing die PROVIDED you can get good brass fit to begin with. Resizing dies are for maintenance of fit only. THE RIFLE MAKES THE BRASS and makes it straight..... proper dies exist to maintain that fit.

Were I you I'd buy one item only..... A Wilson neck sizing die and some bushings. This will tell you whether or not your rifle can shoot.

Peripherally it is also my belief that one should have a Bull's Bag setup for the front and a Protector bunny ear bag for the rear. These two items along with some assorted dunnage will allow you to achieve a stable shooting platform. Take out your sling swivel studs for a smooth ride in the bags.

Good Luck in your quest and I hope this information (list of opinions :D ) is useful to you.

Above all, have fun


al
 
Well, if the above information did't help him, it helped me. Thanks.
 
Great Post

That was the most concise and intelligent answer I've ever read on this site. If he listens, you have saved him years of nightmares trying to get his guns to shoot. Your new handle should be The Old Sage!
 
If the above doesn't work for you, a plan 2:

Send the rifle to a smith that knows what they're doing and get a custom barrel with a benchrest chamber, a minimal action truing and a basic bedding job.

While he has it, get him adjust your trigger so that it is light and crisp. Talk with the smith as to what "light and crisp" means for you.

Get some Lapua brass.

Buy some Berger target bullets.

You'll have to go through the neck turning deal for the new chamber.

When I was loading a 222 regularly, I loaded Benchmark. There might be better things out there now.

If things still don't work, check into your scope, mounts and rings.

If it's still shooting big round groups, you can look into what's going on in the action.

It's not the cheapest way to an acceptable varmint rifle, but it's a pretty sure way.
 
Thanks for taking the time to write up that answer. It has made my day. I learned as much right there as I need to improve my own performance.

Thanks again "alinwa".
 
.222 accuracy

A fouled bore can and will cause poor accuracy, especially an old, factory barrel. I have learned that the hard way! kjk
 
Thank you Al in Wash state. It seems that you still put the horse in the barn but from a different direction. I understood what you wrote as I read it, and it makes sense to me, just don't ask me to quote you yet. I am still learning all your new Words.:eek:

It is going to take me a while to digest it all. What I think you said, and it is basically the same as others with "custom" rifles , is to fit the brass to the rifle using a tools that "fit" the dimensions that exist. I just have to do it differently.

BTW, if this 700 VS in 1-14 twist, were to be rechambered to .223 to take advantage of more brass and stuff on the market in order to create a more friendly case neck, what would I effectively have, a .223 with small bullet capability, or a fast .222 that could not shoot nato or how would that work?

A few more questions later, I am way behind.

I just came from attending my son who had acute pancreatitis in an Atlanta hosp for 52 days. I have been home a week, had to make a trip to GA today about him, my second this week, and woke up this AM with a Hot water heater that would only provide a cup or 2 of HW at a time. It is clogged with lime particles. :( Dont get me wrong, I would do it again. Life is so fragile! Yes life is hard sometimes but we do what we gotta do. That is what families are for. ( Murphy is alive and well, and hopefully not related to any murphys in the member list in the forum but I wish he had left my water heater alone:mad:)

I am able to read a few new pages every day or 2 on all topics. Great info.
 
Yeahh, rechambering to .223 would give you a light bullet gun with slightly more capacity, no real gain IMO.

And making brass from .223 doesn't really tighten it up well either as it'll only thicken the base of the neck. I think shooting neck size only is your best choice. Either with Wilson dies or Lee collet dies.

I pray your son will make a full recovery. I have a passel of kids, my heart goes out to you.

al
 
.222 to .223 option

To Al.

Thanks for your kind thoughts about my son, life is not always what we want.

Please expand your thoughts about no neck gain. I don't know about the technical details of what is possible when chambering, I have never done it, but I thought I could get virtually any size/shape I wanted. It just depends on how thick is my pocketbook. So, could I get within Saami but a minimum Saami neck? Is a custom small dimensioned chamber just one that is at the tight end of sammi or is it smalller?

I have looked for charts but cannot find saami info. An article somewhere on the net about FAL/machine gun brass, etc alluded to an allowable saami range of .010 variance in neck size (diameter?).

(I have emailed RCBS for the target size and allowable variance of their 3 diff die grades and to Rem for their same figures for their chambers. It has been 4-5 days, i think. Perhaps I will NOT get an answer.):confused:

I don't know a cost range for these different procedures, rebarreling, rechambering, etc, so I have no frame of reference. I suppose like most things there is a high and a low and you mostly get the quality that you pay for.

I was reading the threads about the 40XBBR and the premise that I may have an underdeveloped 40XB but with plain stock. I have been looking at the comments about the differences and similarities between 700 and 40XB. I momentarily had some wavering hope that my 1970 700 might have some untapped potential. ;)

Please explain blueprinting. I understand the concept of squaring the bbl with receiver but I do not know how it is done.

Thanks for sharing your time and knowledge.:D
 
I just noticed one more thing

You said you didn't think using .223 brass to make .222 would help; excess brass would accumulate at base of shoulder. :confused::confused:

An Option: I thought MY reason for using .223 mil brass to make .222 would be its availability and generally thicker walls.

Another option: If I rechambered to what would be a light-bullet-shooting .223 (due to existing 1-14 twist) I could minimize the amount of neck sizing required by reaming a smaller neck(pro)?? (.223 brass is also generally more plentiful). Con: A .222 in a .223 case would be a wildcat with close but not accurate loading data. A chronograph would be highly desireable to assist in load development. This is not the kind of tweaking development I would be looking for. If the .222 was rechambered, reducing the bbl length and with a more suitable chamber, would this be an effective option?

Perhaps NO chamber re-engineering should be considered since that probably puts the total expense into another category.

Once fired, the brass must let go of the bullet and therefore cannot hold another bullet until it is resized. Since my existing chamber is too large, even with custom wilson sizing dies, the die will have to reduce the neck diameter (more than is necessary for good accuracy) in order to have a minimum neck tension. I believe you are suggesting that the custom dies would provide significant improvement in reducing "neck flop". Since this rifle is not a single shot, and I need to keep COAL inside the magazine, no shallow bullet seating should be "designed".

So, do I need to compare other dimensions than below?:

1. OD of fired cases (is this close enough for chamber size?)
2. OD of sized cases
3. OD of expanded cases
4. neck wall thickness
5. bullet diam

How much clearance should I have between expanded case neck size and chamber?

Will I have an expander plug?

Oh, well! I have tried to touch on the important points but am not sure if I got them, or correctly. Did I muddy the water? I guess this will be part of "getting my nose bloodied" section of the learning curve.
 
I shot about the same setup as you, back in the 80's.
Clean your bore properly. I bought a good scope , a Leupold 8x. Went to a 40gr Vmax, and cut my groups in half.
There is more you can do, but if you start there, that should help.
Good Luck
Jim
 
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