What does the barrel breech look like on a Pre-54 Winchester?

F

frwillia

Guest
I'm thinking of rebarreling mine. I got a look in the bore of the much vaunted "Rifleman's Rifle" and I am not impressed with what I see in there. I looked because of how quickly it coppers up and how long it takes to get it clean. What I saw was really disapointing. The chamber is really quite rough. the throat still has heavy reamer marks across the lands, the barrel shows significant tool chatter pretty much end to end.

If I ever saw a candidate for firelapping, this one is it. I am not a fan of firelapping but I may try it since there isn't much to lose here.

Meanwhile, I'm trying to find a drawing of the breech for a 1953 Model 70 and not having much luck. Anybody have a picture of one?

Thanks
Fitch
 
Sneak a look at Frank de Haas' book "Bolt Action Rifles" at your local gun shop or bookstore. He has barrel shank drawings at the back.
 
I've looked at many Pre-64 M70s and never saw an excessively rough chamber. The barrels were factory produced (581,000 of them) and had cut rifling--they all show tool marks in the throat/bore to one degree or another, some worse than others. Despite this, most shoot very well. Yes, they do pick up fouling. Most of them have copper wash at the muzzle visible to the naked eye. With today's cleaning products including the foam cleaners, you can pretty easily get copper and carbon out. It's not necessary to get it all out for acceptable hunting rifle accuracy.

Sometimes it's better to just shoot the darn things and not go peering into the bore with a bore scope. I've seen M70s and other rifles that even shot well despite moderate pitting.
 
I have a wee jewellers saw that at one time I was able to buy blades for that cut ferrous metal. It was great on SMLE extractor slots & sight dovetails. It was so fine you could realign the cut in a corner & cut out dovetails in one piece.

Like all good things, I can't get those blades for it any more, but if I want to filagree a ring finding.....
 
I've looked at many Pre-64 M70s and never saw an excessively rough chamber. The barrels were factory produced (581,000 of them) and had cut rifling--they all show tool marks in the throat/bore to one degree or another, some worse than others. Despite this, most shoot very well. Yes, they do pick up fouling. Most of them have copper wash at the muzzle visible to the naked eye. With today's cleaning products including the foam cleaners, you can pretty easily get copper and carbon out. It's not necessary to get it all out for acceptable hunting rifle accuracy.

Sometimes it's better to just shoot the darn things and not go peering into the bore with a bore scope. I've seen M70s and other rifles that even shot well despite moderate pitting.

I put 20 rounds through it, took the carbon out with SLIP2000, then dry patched it and looked end to end with a borescope. The copper fouling started with the rough area at the throat and got progressively worse all the way to the muzzle.

I have pretty much convinced myself that bedding is another significant problem. Looking at the wood I see some compressed shiny areas where it is bearing and those are the tang and the receiver rails right around the mag well. The flat area the front receiver bolt goes into isn't touching the stock, neither is the recoil lug - this puts the receiver in bending when the bolts are tightened. This is not good. So I'll bed it. I've already bedded a M70 and two CZs that shot much better afterwards. I think it has the potential to do a lot of good for this one as well.

I took out the barrel mounting screw and it shot better, not great but better, so I'll float the barrel.

I'm going to polish the chamber to reduce the brass stretching, then try hand lapping the bore to see if that improves how it shoots. I have some slugging bullets coming but I think I'm going to have a heck of a time getting them through that bore.

I wish I could attach a camera to the borescope. Since I've had reasonable access to one I've learned seen some truly surprising stuff in bores, chambers, and throats. Much of it in the bores and chambers of brand new rifles.

I have plenty of "before" group pictures. I'll see how the "after" pictures compare.

If I can get it to shoot consistantly near an inch to an inch and a quarter by bedding it and lapping it, I'll leave the barrel alone. If I can't I'll replace it.

The extractor cutout sounds like a challange. I'll have to see what it looks like before I can decide now to make it. That said, looking at the bolt, the extractor is smaller than the cartridge case I have to wonder if it could be cut on a horizontal mill, or on a jig that would hold it on the lathe carriage (with the tail stock removed perhaps) spinning the cutter in the lathe spindle? Anybody try that?

Fitch
 
The flat area the front receiver bolt goes into isn't touching the stock, neither is the recoil lug - this puts the receiver in bending when the bolts are tightened.

No Pre-64 M70 I've ever seen would shoot accurately with the bedding problems you described. The receiver flat (front action screw hole area) must clamp the wood tightly and the rear of the recoil lug must contact the wood (but not the bottom, sides or front).

After you bed the action and float the barrel I'd bet you'll see much better accuracy despite the rough barrel.
 
As for cutting the extractor slot, I use one of two cutters that I have; one is a JGS and the other by whomever it is can't remember right now. I have a print for cutting it correctly. I mark the barrel after fitting and before cutting the extractor slot with a tool to fit the locking lug slot. Set it in the slot and tap it with a hammer to mark the end of the barrel. Remove the action and mount the barrel in the vise of the mill horizontaly, set the cutter up according to the print and cut to depth. Easy and doesn't fail.

Jim
 
As for cutting the extractor slot, I use one of two cutters that I have; one is a JGS and the other by whomever it is can't remember right now. I have a print for cutting it correctly. I mark the barrel after fitting and before cutting the extractor slot with a tool to fit the locking lug slot. Set it in the slot and tap it with a hammer to mark the end of the barrel. Remove the action and mount the barrel in the vise of the mill horizontaly, set the cutter up according to the print and cut to depth. Easy and doesn't fail.

Jim

Jim,

Don't you mean vertically?

al
 
As for cutting the extractor slot, I use one of two cutters that I have; one is a JGS and the other by whomever it is can't remember right now. I have a print for cutting it correctly. I mark the barrel after fitting and before cutting the extractor slot with a tool to fit the locking lug slot. Set it in the slot and tap it with a hammer to mark the end of the barrel. Remove the action and mount the barrel in the vise of the mill horizontaly, set the cutter up according to the print and cut to depth. Easy and doesn't fail.

Jim

I think I can make a marking tool that would work like the one you have if I really have to rebarrel it.

Is that a cutter that looks like a keyway cutter as Butch suggests? Do you have part number you would be willing to share? Where did you get the print of the breech?

Thanks
Fitch
 
No Pre-64 M70 I've ever seen would shoot accurately with the bedding problems you described. The receiver flat (front action screw hole area) must clamp the wood tightly and the rear of the recoil lug must contact the wood (but not the bottom, sides or front).

Suspicions confirmed. I'll post a picture of the stock when I take it apart. It's pretty easy to see the contact points.

After you bed the action and float the barrel I'd bet you'll see much better accuracy despite the rough barrel.

I sure hope so.

The plan is to bed it this coming week after I finish making the bushings and brass spider screw tips for my receiver truing jigs, getting my wife's new computer set up and her SW installed (hopefully that is done today), get back from the trip to Virginia to pick up her new puppy (Monday), and finish plowing after the snow that is expected Tuesday and and maybe Wednesday.

OK, I plan to bed it late next week. :D

Fitch
 
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This picture shows the stock before bedding.

This view shows most of the problem:

Before-4-CRS.jpg


The compressed area around the magazine well and where the tang rests on the stock behind the rear action screw are obvious. the lack of contact on the flat where the front action screw is located is also obvious. Not seen in this picture, there is zero evidence of recoil lug contact with anything.

It's also evident the center screw has been pretty tight at some time in it's past.

Wood is missing down the front of the hole for the rear action screw. I think that is a factory screw up or something that happened to it in its long history because near as I can tell there is no need for it to be missing for clearance reasons. I'll epoxy an aluminum pillar in there ~ 1/2" in diameter.

This should be a fun project.

I'm planning to bed it from the front of the recoil lug to the front of the magazine well, in the tang/rear pillar reigon, and make sure it isn't touching anyplace else. Is this the right plan or would it be better to put at least some bedding all along the top edge of the interface between action and stock to eliminate the possibility of stuff getting in?

Am I missing something important or that is unique to this receiver that I should know before I start?

Thanks
Fitch
 
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I think I can make a marking tool that would work like the one you have if I really have to rebarrel it.

Is that a cutter that looks like a keyway cutter as Butch suggests? Do you have part number you would be willing to share? Where did you get the print of the breech?

Thanks
Fitch

The cutter is similar to a woodruf cutter but is specially ground with a radius. Don't have the prt number but if youcall JGS reamers and Dave Manson reamers, they will know what you are talking about. One word of caution, don't climb mill when cutting the slot, don't ask how I know this.

If you want a copy of my print I can fax one.
 
The cutter is similar to a woodruf cutter but is specially ground with a radius. Don't have the prt number but if youcall JGS reamers and Dave Manson reamers, they will know what you are talking about.

Thanks for the info on the cutter. Now I know what to do.

One word of caution, don't climb mill when cutting the slot, don't ask how I know this.

I won't. I can visualize it with out asking!

If you want a copy of my print I can fax one.

Darn, I don't have a fax machine. If you can scan it or take a digital picture of it and e-mail it that would be great.

frwillia@mindspring.com

If you can do that, PM me with your e-mail address so I can put in the "good guys" list on my e-mail spam filter.

Thanks
Fitch
 
It's also evident the center screw has been pretty tight at some time in it's past.

Wood is missing down the front of the hole for the rear action screw. I think that is a factory screw up or something that happened to it in its long history because near as I can tell there is no need for it to be missing for clearance reasons.


I'm planning to bed it from the front of the recoil lug to the front of the magazine well, in the tang/rear pillar reigon, and make sure it isn't touching anyplace else.

Most of the old M70s shoot well with the center action screw just snug, not tight. If too tight it may bow the action unless the bedding is perfect. I suspect the reason there was poor (or no) clamping at the action flat was that the tight center screw and high bedding around it bowed the action up away from the wood at the front.

The missing wood at the front of the rear action screw hole is common--there is very little wood left there after the hole is drilled and it often breaks out.

I've bedded several old M70s as you described and that method worked well for me. Why not add a pillar up fron too?
 
I've bedded several old M70s as you described and that method worked well for me. Why not add a pillar up fron too?

Oh yes, I will definitely put a pillar in front. Probably 9/16" diameter aluminum with grooves cut around it to get a good grip on the epoxy. I'll put the front and rear pillars in a bit long, let them stick out the bottom and trim them flush in the mill as one of the last steps in the bedding process after the bedding material is well cured (at least 4 days of cure tme).

That middle action screw won't do anything but clamp the front of the trigger guard to the magazine well when I'm done. A few inch pounds (10 or less)should be plenty tight. It was pretty tight when I removed it the first time. So were all the action screws.

I've been busy with GM-TEC and Q-tips trying to get 50+ years of Hoppes #9 residue out of the action. I have more to do. There is a remarkable amount of that residue on everything.

I strongly suspect that before it showed up on my door step it had never been cleaned with anything but Hoppes #9 on a patch in a loop. That's how Dad did it when he and I would clean the rifles after a range session in the late '40s and through the '50s (when this rifle was new). When I came back to rifles 4 years ago after a 40 years hiatus I was shocked to find out there was more to cleaning them than #9 on a patch cut from an old T-shirt. It took me more than a week of steady soaking with several solvents to get the barrel clean the first time I cleaned it - that was before I took it to the range the first time. Now it only takes 3 days.

Fitch
 
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