Various .223 questions

S

Stape

Guest
Hey all, please forgive my ignorance here, I have a few questions in regards to my rem 700 VLS and handloading. For determining the length from the lands to the bolt-face I lightly neck sized my brass and slightly seated some of the longer bullets into them, then colored up the bullet with a marker, when I chambered the rounds, 5 of them, they all came out and measured 2.02, base to ogive with a stoney point bullet comparator, which to me, looks ridiculously long. It is a 1-12 twist rate, so the heavier, longer bullets aren't very good in this rifle, I am of course limmited to 55 and under, so seating out this far is impossible sometimes depending on the bullet. So, question number one, does this sound right? Rounds seated this far out look odd next to factory ammo, but if I seat to lengths more "standard" it seems that there would be allot of jump into the lands. Second....is it common to have bullet "X" perform better at a certain depth and bullet "Y" like a completely different seating depth. For example, 52gr bergers shoot well when seated to 1.950, and almost any sierra bullet shoots well at 1.90, particularly the 45gr blitzkings. I thought that a rifle would prefer a standard seating depth that would at least have some consistancy across a selection of bullets. The big problem I am having is that I can't find a trend, I guess you would call it. Having trouble finding some kind of standardization. Is it all some form of black art that you just have to stumble across or should I just find my best load and tweak it, and leave it alone?
 
A lot of the factory rifles seem to be coming out with excessively long throating. I don't know if this is done by the same lawyers that adjust the triggers attempting to insure pressures don't get too high, an attempt to ensure any factory/military round can be chambered, or a production decision to ensure the reamer can be reworked the maximum number of times before it is discarded. The good news is that most 22 centerfires shoot best with some jump into the lands, but most of mine like .005" to .015" of jump, not anything like .100" to.200".

I would look for bullets in the 50 to 55 grain ballpark with a shape that places the bearing surface closer to the tip. That said, each rifle is an experiment of one and only shooting it will reveal what that particular rifle likes. That is the fun, if not sometimes frustrating part of a new rifle. Get working on it and remember, when you wear the factory barrel out you can get a benchrest quality stainless barrel throated the way it should be. Have fun.
 
60gr .22's

Hey all, please forgive my ignorance here....
None detected..... Just typical experience with factory throated barrels...

It is a 1-12 twist rate, so the heavier, longer bullets aren't very good in this rifle, I am of course limmited to 55 and under, so seating out this far is impossible sometimes depending on the bullet.
I helped a guy this last weekend with his VLS in .223... Checked out his twist rate and came up with a 1-12"... Not to mention, he was "try'n" 69gr MK and they were going sideways....:eek:
He was say'n, "I can't reach the lands with any other bullet".. I said your twist ain't gonna cooperate...
Fortunatly I had some 60gr HP Sierra Varminters and some H4895.
Even seated WAAAAAY out, couldn't quite get to the lands but the first load went about a .800.... Three of them touching in a clover.
I said, well here is a good bullet you can test with that will shoot. He said he'll
work on it.

Don't forget about the Hornady 60gr Vmax and I heard that Nosler is comming out with a 60gr B-tip...

These bullets will have the bearing surface to get ya to or at least closer to the lands and perfectly stable in your twist rate.
cale
 
Rem. .223

I have the same problem with an extremely long throat in my Rem heavy varminter .223.
It took me months to figure out what the problem was. It didn't shoot anything worth a flip. My rifle has a 1 in 14 twist. The further off the rifling the bullet is seated the worse it shoots. Tried a box of Factory Remington varmint ammo, I think a 45 gr. bullet and shot 5" at a hundred.
I tried handloads with a Sierra Match King and got between 3 and 4". Crap I thought. I put the rifle away and worked with a TC in .221 Fireball. It shoots everything into about a inch and a half.
I saw a comment about long throats when I first got on the forum. I took a new 52 gr. Match King and seated it long in the case. Chambered it and took it out and looked it over with a magnifyier. No marks. Longest bullet I had was a 55 gr FMJ for military. I barely stuck one into a sized case and tried that. Finally I had reached the lands but I only had about a 10th of a inch in the case. Finally tried a 55 gr Nosler seated to touch the lands then seated 2/100 's deeper. Shot 1/4" groups with 27 gr 748 and 55 gr .224 bullets are too heavy for a 1 in 14 barrel.
I thought why the blazes would a company make a varmint/target type rifle with a 26 in heavy barrel in that twist and it won't shoot light bullets. If they would sell it for $400 with a warning that you got to spend a couple of more $100's on it I would not be so mad. But I feel like I was ripped off. I called Remington and they said to ship it back and they would check it out. but that if I could shoot 2 inches with hadloads, then something was wrong with my loads and I should use Rem. factory. On and on we went. So no more Remingtons for me.
This one will have the barrel set back and re-chambered to .223AI.
 
I chambered the rounds, 5 of them, they all came out and measured 2.02, base to ogive with a stoney point bullet comparator, which to me, looks ridiculously long.
Click to expand...

I tried to use the Stoney Point OAL length gauge with dummy cartridge to determine length into the lands. It seems your method is more precise since with some bullets it was very hard to achieve a consistent measurement using the SP OAL tool. But none of my bullets came close to your length.

I used to own a 700VLS in .223 and I recall that the best shooting bullet was a 52 Berger. Using the same Stoney Point comparator the length of the actual loaded round was 1.908" and accuracy was the best of any rifle I had owned up to that point.

My newer 700 SPS loaded with the 52 Sierra is at 1.910" for the loaded round measured with the Stoney Point comparator. Again this has given me exceptional accuracy. And the actual OAL length average seems to be right at the Sierra load manual listed length of around 2.26" or so.
 
Thanks for the replies guys. I've been busy and haven't logged in to express my appreciation for the advice. Well, I found a load that shoots like a house on fire and I'm sticking with it. Neck sized LC brass, H335 and a 52 gr Berger seated to 1.90 shot 4 groups, largest being .5 and the smallest .3, no fliers, and @100 yds. I have shot groups like this before, but usually one out of 10 would be this good, no consistancy until now. I think I am going to get some tools from sinclair and look at better seating dies, de-burr the flash hole, and sort my brass into lots to see if all this work makes a difference. To some degree I have to understand that this is pretty much a factory rifle, and be happy with the results, but good is never good enough. I had the trigger tuned to a crisp 1lb because it is firstly a field rifle, and I bedded the action and floated the barrell, and put better optics on it. Nothing fancy, just what my budget allowed. I read "The ultimate in rifle accuracy by Glen Nweick (sp?) and have been putting some of the info in that book to practice, with good results. If I keep this up you guys might be seeing me over in the classifieds section looking for a real BR rig.......Thanks again for all the input.
 
Neck sized LC brass, H335 and a 52 gr Berger seated to 1.90 shot 4 groups, largest being .5 and the smallest .3, no fliers, and @100 yds.
Click to expand...

Glad to hear you have found a good load , for a factory rifle those are excellent groupings. The 52 Berger gave me the best accuracy in my old VLS .223. I have tried it in my new SPS but with 748. I need to try some loads with the Berger using H335 like I do with the 52 Sierra. What primer are you using for that load?

I have some of the Sinclair tools , flash hole de-burring tool and primer pocket uniformer. My seating die is a Forster benchrest seater. I am lucky enough to live close enough to shop at Sinclair in person. They have been very helpful through the years.

I also have the book you refer to - the author is Glen Newick.
 
Loading

Indeed you have struck a winning combo here.Glenn's book is indeed full of good info. From the sounds of your results you've invested 10% time and effort and got the 90% result. The next 10% result will cost 90% time and effort. Using all the tricks in the book might get you to .25" groups on occasion. It's the damned law of diminishing returns! All great fun on nasty winter nights though! Don't be surprised if something comes along and defies logic, these rifles are definitely female!
 
Stape: I am so happy that your Remington finally "perked up" for you!
Right now I am just getting started load development wise for a Remington XR-100 in caliber 22-250 Remington. I have had good accuracy with the 52 gr. Bergers in it. Best group to date has been .397" (5 shots at 100 yards).
This 52 gr. Berger bullet is also excellent on Varmints.
I was born and raised in Renton, Washington (I see you are from Bremerton).
Have you been over the new Narrows Bridge as yet?
I used to travel a lot over Belfair way as we had a condo at Union on Hoods Canal just past Bremerton a ways. Kind of miss the Oysters and Dungeness Crabs but not the rain!
Wishing you continued success with the Remington.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
 
The primer used is a CCI BR-4 benchrest primer. Varmintguy, I do allot of waterfowling in the great bend, right there in Union, down by Purdy cut-off, great waterfowl and good varmint hunting when its a really low tide, all the critters come out to get the trapped salmon on the mud flats.
 
.223

I checked the wall in my loading shack and my overall cartridge length of the good shooting load with Nosler 55gr. is 2.335. The bullet is just barely in the neck of the case.
That is a loooong throat.
 
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