R
roninflag
Guest
the tr class only allows 308 or 223. what about 30-06??
J
JeffVN
Guest
+1 Any cartridge other than .223 or .308 means welcome to F-Class Open.
JeffVN
JeffVN
R
roninflag
Guest
tr class
.223 AND .308 get their own class? why??
.223 AND .308 get their own class? why??
Ron,
To understand that, you need to understand some of the background behind the sport.
Outside the U.S., many of the countries that form (or formed) the British Commonwealth i.e. Canada, Britain, Austrailia, and others shoot a form of iron-sight long-range Prone competition that is very similar, but not exactly the same, as what Americans outside the sport tend to lump together as just 'Palma'. In Canada, one of the categories is known as 'Target Rifle', or just 'TR'. Guns are limited in that class to either .308 w/ a max of 155gr bullets, or .223 Rem with a max of 81gr.
When F-Class got started, it was essentially 'run-what-ya-brung', i.e. everybody shot together. In many areas with small matches, it still ends up that way. Over time, it got divided into two areas - F/Open, which is pretty much still 'run-what-ya-brung', and F-F(Canadian) or F/TR (American), which retained the caliber limitations of conventional 'TR'. Part of the reasoning is that on paper a .223 Rem w/ a long 30" tube, slow powder and a 80gr bullet should be roughly equivalent to a .308 Win w/ a 30" barrel and 155gr bullets. Whether they *are* equal is a subject of some debate, but personally I don't think one has a *huge* advantage over the other.
The .30-06, while a grand old cartridge, is not equivalent, and is not a normal TR (or even Palma) cartridge. A purpose built rifle slinging 210s (or heavier) from a long barrel would be significantly ahead of the power curve in F/TR. If you want to go that route, nobody is stopping you... but you'll have to play in the deep end with the sharks in F/Open.
May not be what you want to hear, but thats my take on it. It's a game, those are the rules. You can like them or not, it really doesn't matter.
YMMV,
Monte
To understand that, you need to understand some of the background behind the sport.
Outside the U.S., many of the countries that form (or formed) the British Commonwealth i.e. Canada, Britain, Austrailia, and others shoot a form of iron-sight long-range Prone competition that is very similar, but not exactly the same, as what Americans outside the sport tend to lump together as just 'Palma'. In Canada, one of the categories is known as 'Target Rifle', or just 'TR'. Guns are limited in that class to either .308 w/ a max of 155gr bullets, or .223 Rem with a max of 81gr.
When F-Class got started, it was essentially 'run-what-ya-brung', i.e. everybody shot together. In many areas with small matches, it still ends up that way. Over time, it got divided into two areas - F/Open, which is pretty much still 'run-what-ya-brung', and F-F(Canadian) or F/TR (American), which retained the caliber limitations of conventional 'TR'. Part of the reasoning is that on paper a .223 Rem w/ a long 30" tube, slow powder and a 80gr bullet should be roughly equivalent to a .308 Win w/ a 30" barrel and 155gr bullets. Whether they *are* equal is a subject of some debate, but personally I don't think one has a *huge* advantage over the other.
The .30-06, while a grand old cartridge, is not equivalent, and is not a normal TR (or even Palma) cartridge. A purpose built rifle slinging 210s (or heavier) from a long barrel would be significantly ahead of the power curve in F/TR. If you want to go that route, nobody is stopping you... but you'll have to play in the deep end with the sharks in F/Open.
May not be what you want to hear, but thats my take on it. It's a game, those are the rules. You can like them or not, it really doesn't matter.
YMMV,
Monte
L
larlevine
Guest
i was wondering about that myself
very helpful explanation..thanks
very helpful explanation..thanks
R
roninflag
Guest
tr calibers
MONTE- that helps a lot. i had heard or read something about a "canadian" origin. i was thinking that since service rifle allows 30-06, 308 and 223; that tr should too . i have heard it said the 308 is more "accurate" than the 30-06. i don't happen to believe that. i really like the 30-06. i was hoping to for a chance to prove otherwise. and i think i could have if it was "legal". i will stick with the 6.5-284 or 7mm for f / O class though. thanks for informing me. roninflag
MONTE- that helps a lot. i had heard or read something about a "canadian" origin. i was thinking that since service rifle allows 30-06, 308 and 223; that tr should too . i have heard it said the 308 is more "accurate" than the 30-06. i don't happen to believe that. i really like the 30-06. i was hoping to for a chance to prove otherwise. and i think i could have if it was "legal". i will stick with the 6.5-284 or 7mm for f / O class though. thanks for informing me. roninflag
H
Hollywood1009
Guest
I read your post and is there also a weight limit in the f/tr class or something?
Any specific barrel at the muzzle or not? Curious I have been doing alot of reading and there are so many rules WOW I live in WI and would be shooting in WI. Curious I am about to order a barrel and curious on what I need? I would like to get a 308 cal in a 30" barrel with a 1'11 twist with a 1.360 all the way out straight taper...Thanks Ryan Would that work?
Any specific barrel at the muzzle or not? Curious I have been doing alot of reading and there are so many rules WOW I live in WI and would be shooting in WI. Curious I am about to order a barrel and curious on what I need? I would like to get a 308 cal in a 30" barrel with a 1'11 twist with a 1.360 all the way out straight taper...Thanks Ryan Would that work?
Ryan,
F/TR has a weight limit of 8.25 kilograms... about 18.15 lbs for us yanks. That includes *everything* attached to the gun - scope, bipod, sling, whatever. If you pick the gun up off the ground and a piece/part comes with the gun... it gets included in the weight.
As an example... my relatively stock 12 F/TR with factory 30" tube, laminate stock, NF 12-42x BR scope in Burris Signature Zee rings, Harris BRMS 6-9" bipod with Pod-Loc and Pod-Paws weighed in at 17.5# at FCNC. The Pod Paws are surprisingly heavy - 0.33# just by themselves.
Having shot a bit of conventional Prone (i.e. 30" barrel with iron sights and a sling)... I think you definitely *don't* need a big heavy barrel that looks like someone jacked a drive shaft off a semi
A medium Palma contour works quite nicely, and its entirely possible to shoot pretty well with a light Palma contour. A fluted heavy Palma contour might be my choice if I was building from scratch... about the same weight as a med. Palma, but a tad stiffer.
Think of it this way... every ounce of weight you use up in your barrel is an ounce closer to being over the limit, and muzzle heavy guns are harder (for me at least) to control in the bags. There's definitely something to be said for a well balanced, well behaved gun that tracks nicely in the bags.
The .308 is blessedly not that finicky when it comes to twist rates. A 13 twist might be a *little* better for 155gr bullets, and a 10 twist might be a *little* better for 190gr bullets... but a 11 or 12 twist should shoot dang near anything in between with no problem.
YMMV,
Monte
F/TR has a weight limit of 8.25 kilograms... about 18.15 lbs for us yanks. That includes *everything* attached to the gun - scope, bipod, sling, whatever. If you pick the gun up off the ground and a piece/part comes with the gun... it gets included in the weight.
As an example... my relatively stock 12 F/TR with factory 30" tube, laminate stock, NF 12-42x BR scope in Burris Signature Zee rings, Harris BRMS 6-9" bipod with Pod-Loc and Pod-Paws weighed in at 17.5# at FCNC. The Pod Paws are surprisingly heavy - 0.33# just by themselves.
Having shot a bit of conventional Prone (i.e. 30" barrel with iron sights and a sling)... I think you definitely *don't* need a big heavy barrel that looks like someone jacked a drive shaft off a semi
A medium Palma contour works quite nicely, and its entirely possible to shoot pretty well with a light Palma contour. A fluted heavy Palma contour might be my choice if I was building from scratch... about the same weight as a med. Palma, but a tad stiffer.Think of it this way... every ounce of weight you use up in your barrel is an ounce closer to being over the limit, and muzzle heavy guns are harder (for me at least) to control in the bags. There's definitely something to be said for a well balanced, well behaved gun that tracks nicely in the bags.
The .308 is blessedly not that finicky when it comes to twist rates. A 13 twist might be a *little* better for 155gr bullets, and a 10 twist might be a *little* better for 190gr bullets... but a 11 or 12 twist should shoot dang near anything in between with no problem.
YMMV,
Monte
Last edited:
H
Hollywood1009
Guest
I just printed off the match rules for the FTR Class it didnt say anything about bullet weight? Is there a bullet weight restriction? Thanks Ryan
Ryan,
F/TR has a weight limit of 8.25 kilograms... about 18.15 lbs for us yanks. That includes *everything* attached to the gun - scope, bipod, sling, whatever. If you pick the gun up off the ground and a piece/part comes with the gun... it gets included in the weight.
As an example... my relatively stock 12 F/TR with factory 30" tube, laminate stock, NF 12-42x BR scope in Burris Signature Zee rings, Harris BRMS 6-9" bipod with Pod-Loc and Pod-Paws weighed in at 17.5# at FCNC. The Pod Paws are surprisingly heavy - 0.33# just by themselves.
Having shot a bit of conventional Prone (i.e. 30" barrel with iron sights and a sling)... I think you definitely *don't* need a big heavy barrel that looks like someone jacked a drive shaft off a semi
Think of it this way... every ounce of weight you use up in your barrel is an ounce closer to being over the limit, and muzzle heavy guns are harder (for me at least) to control in the bags. There's definitely something to be said for a well balanced, well behaved gun that tracks nicely in the bags.
The .308 is blessedly not that finicky when it comes to twist rates. A 13 twist might be a *little* better for 155gr bullets, and a 10 twist might be a *little* better for 190gr bullets... but a 11 or 12 twist should shoot dang near anything in between with no problem.
YMMV,
Monte
H
Hollywood1009
Guest
So all there is a restriction on 18.15lbs and either 308 or 223?
Do you have a FTR Class gun? Thanks
Do you have a FTR Class gun? Thanks
H
Hollywood1009
Guest
Thanks for your help Ryan
M
mysticplayer
Guest
Mr. F from Kamloops BC Canada
The class was started in Canada by Mr. Farquartson (sp?) thus the F in F class. He did alot of palma shooting. As he and his fellow shooters aged, he found slings and open sights to be a bit too hard to do.
So instead of quitting, he came up with this class so tired eyes and bones could keep playing. Why the close ties to the Palma cartridge limits.
The class took off and grew rapidly because not everyone wants to do the sling thing. The event started to attract shooters from the BR ranks that were getting tired of the money pit and limited shooting. Interested parties in LR shooting started to take notice.
Not sure when the F(O) class got started but the initials pretty much give you the state of mind re the rules. WIDE open except for weight, forend width, cal limit and safety. Leads to some pretty creative rifles. This actually helps LOWER the cost of playing. The 10KG overall weight helps with recoil alot.
Please note that the full Cdn rules are at DCRA.org. They will defer from the NRA/US versions for F(TR) but I think they are the same for F(O)?
Personally, I shoot F(O) as I can fill my boots with the rifle design and cartridge I want (within rule limits). I find it easier on the shoulder and pocket book.
I think the US F(TR) can lead to MORE expenditure then F(O) as you can push the 308 and 223 WAY beyond designed parameters. Some of the rigs I read about are performing like 300WM's. That's a little too spicy for me.
The Cdn version is structured which allows the 223 to do equally well (some matches have been won with fast twist 223's). Problem is most of us shoot at smaller matches where everyone is grouped together. May as well shoot in F(O). The 6BR is really popular at many shorter distances so you don't need a big kicker to do well.
This year will see a number of 6.5X47L, 6X47L and other moderate size small bores compete against the 7's.
Jerry
The class was started in Canada by Mr. Farquartson (sp?) thus the F in F class. He did alot of palma shooting. As he and his fellow shooters aged, he found slings and open sights to be a bit too hard to do.
So instead of quitting, he came up with this class so tired eyes and bones could keep playing. Why the close ties to the Palma cartridge limits.
The class took off and grew rapidly because not everyone wants to do the sling thing. The event started to attract shooters from the BR ranks that were getting tired of the money pit and limited shooting. Interested parties in LR shooting started to take notice.
Not sure when the F(O) class got started but the initials pretty much give you the state of mind re the rules. WIDE open except for weight, forend width, cal limit and safety. Leads to some pretty creative rifles. This actually helps LOWER the cost of playing. The 10KG overall weight helps with recoil alot.
Please note that the full Cdn rules are at DCRA.org. They will defer from the NRA/US versions for F(TR) but I think they are the same for F(O)?
Personally, I shoot F(O) as I can fill my boots with the rifle design and cartridge I want (within rule limits). I find it easier on the shoulder and pocket book.
I think the US F(TR) can lead to MORE expenditure then F(O) as you can push the 308 and 223 WAY beyond designed parameters. Some of the rigs I read about are performing like 300WM's. That's a little too spicy for me.
The Cdn version is structured which allows the 223 to do equally well (some matches have been won with fast twist 223's). Problem is most of us shoot at smaller matches where everyone is grouped together. May as well shoot in F(O). The 6BR is really popular at many shorter distances so you don't need a big kicker to do well.
This year will see a number of 6.5X47L, 6X47L and other moderate size small bores compete against the 7's.
Jerry