"Three Rings of Steel" Question/Discussion

C

crb

Ray Brooks
I have been cogitating on this for awhile and want to insight from the more experienced people here.

Is the Remington bolt face / bbl tenon interface actually good engineering or just good advertising copy ? With the slop of a typical factory action does the Remington setup help contain gases or does it just direct these gases straight back to the shooter's face ?

Also the Rem requires +/- .150 of the case head out of the chamber. A Savage only needs +/- .125. I don't know off the top of my head what a BR action requires but I bet it's not much.

Most if not all BR actions use a coned breech. A Savage uses a flat bolt face and bbl tenon. Neither of these seems to have issues.

Educate me please.

Thanks
Ray
 
There are not many cases where the web of the case does not extend forward enough that is can hang out 150 thou or so...

The older PPC cases were a problem. I don't know about the newer PPC cases today.

How ever the 3 rings of steel and the 700 extractor combine and make the strongest, safest mass produced rifle ever made. It does work well.

I personally have seen a 700 undamaged after firing a .303 British cartridge in a factory 7mm Remington Magnum. I had to remove the barrel to get the bolt out and remove the case from the boltface. After doing that I assembled it, the headspace was perfect and as far as I know that rifle is still working...

I am a firm believer in the design. It contains the cartridge very well.
 
Dennis,
You type faster than I.
I prefer,& believe Dennis will concur, not to sacrifice the three rings of steel by adding a SAKO/M16 type extractor to the design.

The 700 is the most copied design,including trigger group, to date of numerous custom action manufacturers whether it be counter bored or a coned breech.

The firing pin stop/shoulder will seal gases from flame cutting your cheek & vent it out the pressure relief hole in the front receiver ring,if a pierced primer is encountered.

A controlled round feed action-98Mauser,Pre64 70,Springfield 03 will flame cut/blind you if your safely glasses aren't worn if a pierced primer is encountered.
 
Is the Remington bolt face / bbl tenon interface actually good engineering or just good advertising copy ?

Ray

I think it's some of both. I have a couple of examples here in the shop of Remington bolts that went through a case failure caused by extremely high pressure, which is the failure condition your talking about. One had the nose from the bolt face forward sheared off and the other was a partial failure. In both cases the shooters had no injuries. The important thing to remember is as long as the shooters face is on the opposite side from the port, their face is in a safety zone protected by the solid section of the action. Gas will go out the magazine, out the loading port and a small amount will go back into the bolt which gets vented out the gas port in the bolt body. After that happens pressure drops fast. I have another example here of a different action that the receiver ring is in 3 pieces. The shooter had no injuries and has one whale of a story to tell. I'll never have have another rifle that I look down a loading port. We're looking at the back end of a bomb. Sometimes bad things happen. Murphy is alive and well out there somewhere.

Do I lose any sleep over all the Remington's I've barreled over the years. No

Dave
 
No injuries,eh?

Dave:

Are you saying the shooters shorts did not take a hit? And those bystanders shorts too.

Rustystud
 
The receiver that ended up in three pieces was at a public indoor range and when all the pieces stopped showering down there were some choice comments made by the shooters on either side. The barrel ended up 25' down range. The only piece that remained in the shooters hand was the buttstock from the pistol grip back. Scared the hell out of me and I wasn't even there.

Dave
 
Dans40X said:
Dennis,
& vent it out the pressure relief hole in the front receiver ring,if a pierced primer is encountered..
Click to expand...

I have an older 40x that didn't have a relief hole so I added one yesterday when I was rebbl'ing it.
 
Gentlemen,

I was talking to a gunsmith, who worked for a shop that did Remington warranty work, about clearances when fitting the bolt nose to the counterbore on 700's, specifically bolt nose OD, and the counterbore ID. His advice was to fit it with minimal clearance...I wanna say .005 total, or less. His reasoning was this: If you get an extremely high pressure load that results in escaping gas from case failure, the closely fitted bolt nose OD will expand into the counterbore ID and seal off, or minimize the escape of gases. Sounded reasonable to me. What say you?

Justin
 
Justin,
Remingtons machine work might not allow that to happen on a factory rifle. If the tenon threads were out of concentricity with the bolt nose counter bore, The bolt might not close.
Butch
 
Dans40X said:
Dennis,
I prefer,& believe Dennis will concur, not to sacrifice the three rings of steel by adding a SAKO/M16 type extractor to the design.

The firing pin stop/shoulder will seal gases from flame cutting your cheek & vent it out the pressure relief hole in the front receiver ring,if a pierced primer is encountered.

A controlled round feed action-98Mauser,Pre64 70,Springfield 03 will flame cut/blind you if your safely glasses aren't worn if a pierced primer is encountered.
Click to expand...

Gentleman, the majority of observants could almost agree on everything, except the importance of the pressure relief went hole in the receiver ring.

Gentleman, please can anyone tell us how important this went hole must be when it's next to the open raceway slot that's at least as five times as big?

Con
 
Con Cross said:
Gentleman, the majority of observants could almost agree on everything, except the importance of the pressure relief went hole in the receiver ring.

Gentleman, please can anyone tell us how important this went hole must be when it's next to the open raceway slot that's at least as five times as big?

Con
Click to expand...

I don't think it is needed at all... if the bolt nose clearance is correct it would be extremely rare and extremely hard to rupture a case... primers that blow would vent inside the bolt. I really don't know how a case would rupture... everything would expand and seal and lock the bolt head in the barrel.
 
Pierced primer gas is going to have to make a 90 degree turn to go down the raceway. While it is making this turn a lot [ but not all ] of the pressure will be bled off by the vent hole.

This is the main question I have about the three rings. In the event of a ruptured case the counterbore will direct the escaping gas straight down the bolt lug raceways. There is a pretty good sized gap between the bolt plug and the lh raceway [ rh action ].
 
Zebra13 said:
Gentlemen,

I was talking to a gunsmith, who worked for a shop that did Remington warranty work, about clearances when fitting the bolt nose to the counterbore on 700's, specifically bolt nose OD, and the counterbore ID. His advice was to fit it with minimal clearance...I wanna say .005 total, or less. His reasoning was this: If you get an extremely high pressure load that results in escaping gas from case failure, the closely fitted bolt nose OD will expand into the counterbore ID and seal off, or minimize the escape of gases. Sounded reasonable to me. What say you?

Justin
Click to expand...

Mr. Justin, in a theory it sounds very good.

Gentleman, would any of you believe that it may not be the best with the pressure so high to expand the nose to orburate and seal all the gas of ruptured case head separation and the bolt to become a perfectly sealed piston having floor area equal to the floor area of the .50 Cal.?

Gentleman, how many of you still like to think it's a good idea?

Con
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Zebra13 said:
Gentlemen,

I was talking to a gunsmith, who worked for a shop that did Remington warranty work, about clearances when fitting the bolt nose to the counterbore on 700's, specifically bolt nose OD, and the counterbore ID. His advice was to fit it with minimal clearance...I wanna say .005 total, or less. His reasoning was this: If you get an extremely high pressure load that results in escaping gas from case failure, the closely fitted bolt nose OD will expand into the counterbore ID and seal off, or minimize the escape of gases. Sounded reasonable to me. What say you?

Justin
Click to expand...

I subscribe to what your gunsmith has told you and have seen it work. I am not a big Remington fan but when properly done, the system works. I have and will continue to use .003-.005 clearance between the bolt to barrel clearances until someone proves it wrong. I type way too slow to go into detail as to why, but there are several reasons why I think it is what it is.
You can call me and I'll be glad to give my two cents worth.--- Mike Ezell
 
I personally don't believe the bolt nose is going to expand due to gas pressure alone. The increased bolt thrust would open up the nose clearance a little and the escaping gas would zip right through.

On a related note, I have a PPC Rem bbl but no PPC bolt. I thought about rebating the rims down to 223 size and read several posts here about doing it. The problem is that with the Rem bolt face you really have to cut the heck out of the PPC case head. I did a couple and sectioned one and just didn't like what I saw so I haven't pursued it any farther.
 
Dennis, you're dead on the money. I had a rifle that was chambered in 6HLS and the 'customer' was fireforming new brass with Red Dot powder and no bullet. The first one was a full case. Had to beat the bolt open and then discovered the bolt face was completely filled with brass that had flowed into every crevice. Took about an hour with a Dremel tool to get all the brass out but everything was useable and the rifle is still in service 12 years later. Remington's are about the safest rifle out there. The bolt nose is designed to seal off everything in the case of extreme pressure and it does it extremely well.

(I'll never fireform with a full case of Red Dot again.)
 
Escaping gas..

I will just say this, gas(air) will cut your body in half at 1000psi. Escaping gas from and action at 50,000 plus psi will go around a corner, 90 degrees and put your eye out faster than you can blink. Safety glasses and hearing protection are minimual protection in the case of a catastrophic action failure.
A bolt propelled by 50,000 plus psi will go clean through your head.

The whole reason for prof testing was to engineer actions and barrels to not fail.

Rustystud
 
I hadn't thought of the clearance getting sealed with shrapnel !!! I'm glad I set up my latest Savage bolt headed Remmy with .005 clearance !!!

Could you even blow a case head if all the body is in the chamber and only the extractor groove is hanging out ?
 
crb said:
I hadn't thought of the clearance getting sealed with shrapnel !!! I'm glad I set up my latest Savage bolt headed Remmy with .005 clearance !!!

Could you even blow a case head if all the body is in the chamber and only the extractor groove is hanging out ?
Click to expand...

Yes!
 
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