those who weigh ?

N

nipper

Guest
wondering on those who weigh rounds what have you found to be the best to cull out?? i just weighed a box of wolf extra and was actually pretty surprised with result 99.5 % were between 51.7 and 51.9 on a scale accurate to .1 grain,should i cull below and above or just keep everything from 51.5 to 52.0 ????

bill
 
I don't weigh ammunition but.

I have done experiment after experiment and have not been able to convince myself (or anyone else for that matter) that weighing any quality of ammo does anything. However since you asked about Wolf Match Target, I happened to have run an experiment on that very ammo. You can see the results here in post #9.

Believe the data or not and I'm sure that being able to duplicate the experiment won't change the minds of those who do weigh. Don't rely on "weighing ammo reduced fliers for me"; look for hard data and you won't find much in the way of statistical data proving it helps.

Please let us know when you have change Wolf MT into Eley Tennex by weighing.
 
maybe its just this 1 lot of wolf but they are all very consistant weighing either 51.6,51.7 or 51.8 so i dont see where this is going to help, next investment i think will be a cronograph...


bill
 
Nipper:

That would be a great investment.. I have the CED MKII and love it. Before that I had an Oehler 33P. Be prepared for a shock when you chronograph Eley.. So far, none of the Eley I have chronographed comes even close to what the box says.. I guess that you can use the listed velocity to buy more, but then, maybe that will be different..

Dave
 
Dave S said:
Nipper:

Be prepared for a shock when you chronograph Eley.. So far, none of the Eley I have chronographed comes even close to what the box says.. I guess that you can use the listed velocity to buy more, but then, maybe that will be different..

Dave
Click to expand...
Exactly what I found when I chronographed 7 or 8 lots of Eley a couple of times. My conclusion was what you get is an "expensive pig in a poke".
 
To weigh or not to weigh . . .

While reading this thread I was reminded of another part of the accuracy puzzle, that has not been mentioned here yet.

Back many years ago I had Fred Sinclair build me a 6PPC on a 40X action. I was thinking of having him put a Davidson sleeve on the action, and asked his opinion. He said: "Joe, If you think it will work, it will work".

Gary Anderson won a lot of Olympic Medals in Smallbore several years ago. He also held National records in High Power competition. I have read where he believes that at the upper levels of marksmanship, it is 90% mental. Other top shooters have said the same thing. Lanny Bassham has written books and gives training lectures on the mental management of developing markmanship skills. He too was an Olympic Gold medal winner.

So: I'd give odds that as as Fred Sinclair said: "If you think it will work, it will work". If someone THINKS that weighing rimfire ammo will improve their scores, it will.

We have three very competitive rimfire shooters in our club. The rest of us have fun, but these three guys are "competitive". Bill and his son, Mark win most of the matches UP here. Leo is almost as old as I am. I mean he is OLD. He tries very hard and he wants to beat Bill SO bad, I thing he must dream about it.

Last month I sez to Leo. "Why don't you weigh some of that new low speed Black Box we got from Dan Kellough: Might help". Leo thought about that. He does a lot of thinking before he moves into action. So last week, just before our May match, Leo weighed 3 boxes for 1044 Black Box. He beat Bill in the 25 yard match, and was walking on air. Bill's son Mark beat Leo, but that was OK: Leo beat Bill.

Bill and his son Mark did not shoot the 50 yard match. Too windy and too cold. Yea, it's still cold UP here in Late Winter. Our Spring starts in June. (It was snowing again yesterday, during our club's Cowboy Action Match).

Anyway: Back to our May rimfire match: The 50 yard match . . . I consider myself a fairly good wind doper, and I usually win at 50 yards, when it's too cold for Bill. Yea: Leo beat me this month, but I got 2nd Place.

Joe Haller ;-)
 
joe here are my thoughts-

i agree on the mental aspect for sure, maybe rim thickness and weight has no effect at all ,it still eliminates 2 things from the accuracy equasion for me. i have already won 1 match and lost another by only 1 point so shooting ability is not my main issue,will i have to move up from 6.50 a box ammo to 10.00 a box right now, its very possible, but i am not going to shoot 10.00 a box ammo in a 10/22 though.

bill
 
Whaooo!

Look at those Standard Deviations! The heavy bullets have a much better SD and extreme spread than the lighter ones.

I remember a discussion on this forum last year. Brad who lives in Missouri said he had a friend who noticed better accuracy from the heavier weights in his sorted lots.

Said his friend thought that there may be inclusions of lighter metals or even air spaces in the lighter bullets and, if those inclusions were off center, the bullets might have an erratic flight and variable speeds.

Pokerplayer: I see you are from Missouri, too. Would you be Brad's friend?

Joe
 
Pokerplayer, I took a look at your data and there is a .9 correlation between weight and average velocity which is quite good. That says that 89% of the variation in velocity is due to the weight. The problem is, unless you measured the velocity at the target, the correlation is backwards. The lighter rounds are slower and the heavy rounds are faster. Not quite intuitive.

And as you pointed out, you don't know what you are weighing. Having pulled the bullets on many a Wolf round, I know that most of the weight variation is in the bullet. The problem is, I also saw a .1 grain variation in the powder and out of 1 grain that is a lot and of course you can't weigh the priming compound. In the data I presented, I weighed every round and could hardly find any correlation between weight and velocity or vertical dispersion. I did however, find a correlation between velocity and vertical dispersion which is to be expected. My opinion is that most of the vertical dispersion is caused by the primer/powder propellant and the horizontal component is caused by the bullets, voids, roundness, and the base of the bullet. People have shown that you can do a lot of damage to the front of the bullet and still have good accuracy. I have never measured overall length, others have.

The problem is as you have pointed out, even if measuring something did anything, what is the ultimate cost?
 
Not to mention the fact that weighing .22's is well, it sucks, the work that is, very labor intensive. I was going to cut a big hog in the ass too, turn Wolf MT into Tennex, on the surface it sounds good, but ain't gonna happen. Thanks, Douglas

PS: the brick I weighed, I used ten little bowls, each labeled in .1 grain increments. The difference in the Wolf rounds was that far off, a whole grain from least weight to most weight and everything in between.
 
The weight sorting I did was on a brick of SK Pistol Match. I found the range to be from 51.3 to 52.3grs I believe. The heavier ones definately shot better. I don't think it's a mental thing either. I guess it can be if you believe in that stuff. I go by what I see and accuracy results in testing for groups. I shot the lighter rounds that I sorted and they didn't shoot near as good. I also noticed more flyers in them. The heavier ones shot little holes for groups. I shot one group with a 21oz tuner weight on my Suhl using the heavier sorted ammo that measured .107ctc. That is subtracting .204 for bullet diameter. And I can assure you it was measured correctly. Shot more that were around .140ctc.

I believe these were all shot with that ammo I mentioned above on the same day except maybe the 3rd one. I also shot a 241 or 242 USBR target at 50yds with that same ammo that I sorted(heaviest ones 51.8 to 52.1grs I believe) which is good for my range.

23790IMGP0029.JPG


The lighter rounds just didn't shoot like the heavier ones. It wasn't in my head or my gun acting up either.

The proof was on the paper for me.
 
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And for those that wish to compare the results, here's how that weight sorted SK Pistol Match stacked up to one of my prior groups shot on another day with Eley Tenex. I hear of 10 shot groups that are shot in the .1's. I myself have never witnessed one outdoors, but I am sure it can be done with some guns at certain times that allow it. But it won't happen too often especially if you only deduct .204 for bullet diameter. That would mean your outside to outside farthest spread could only be .403 to break the .200 barrier.

23790IMGP2075.JPG
 
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