"The Golden Bull"

L

linekin

Active member
At the Nationals meeting once again "pure accuracy scoring" was discussed as a alternative to how we do it now. Once again it fell out of favor & was set aside again. While I'm personally not opposed to it does have merit IMO, especially given some of the lots of ammo we've all come across lately with those "fliers"
I get the argument that a 249-24x is a prettier target than a 250-10. There's no doubt about that, but it would be a travesty to take away from the consistent shooting a 250 requires. Score trumps X's period.
There was some rumbling about some not wanting to shoot IR50 for the above reason & "fliers" that will take them out of contention. Understandable.
Now here's where it got interesting & was met with quite a lot of enthusiasm throughout the weekend devising a way to combat the above "problems" Enter "The Golden Bull"
"The Golden Bull" would be somewhere on the target, most likely the bottom, & would be where one could potentially re-deem themselves from their ammo woes & that inevitable flier.
As it was discussed & as I understand it "The Golden Bull" could only be used if the competitor has missed only 1 bull so as to narrow down the amount people would utilize the option. It would potentially recoup all the points lost be it 1 point or whatever depending on where the flier landed.
The shot fired MUST hit the X to redeem themselves.
Time Limit is 1 minute, or whatever is decided on, if it actually does get implemented.
Here's the catch....IF he/she decides to shoot "The Golden Bull" they also run the risk of losing the amount they would stand to gain. For instance, if you had a 245 & could gain 5 points BY ONLY HITTING the X to a 250, you could also LOSE 5 points by shooting a 10. So you could potentially end up with a 240!!! That's the gamble!!! This is to keep "The Golden Bull" used to a minimum as it shouldn't be a distraction for the match itself.
The competitor would announce once the cease fire command is given that he/she wishes to shoot the bull. And with all his peers watching they can have at it.
If "The Golden Bull" is shot before cease fire is given during a cherry picked condition earlier than it could not be applied. This is done for obvious reasons.
None of this was voted on & may never come to play but the enthusiasm it created was pretty impressive. A little jolt that maybe we could use.
I personally think its worth a shot (no pun intended)
I'm sure Wayne doesn't want to be bombarded with suggestions as it isn't even at play yet. So if you have any additional thoughts please keep them here. He'll see 'em.

Keith
 
Hi Keith,

A couple of thoughts:

1. "TRUE" flyers are really very rare and in almost every case those shots that many categorize as flyers are simply part of a normal shot distribution. To add to that, I'd estimate that out of some 70,000 shots I've fired in my ballistic tunnel and analyzed....I might have only one "TRUE" flyer every 2,000 to 3,000 rds regardless of the lot #. A lot of ammo can shoot terrible, but not have any flyers and vise-versa.
Yeah, I know I'll take a lot of grief over the above statement but I have the data to prove it and any statistician that has analyzed the number of shots I have would say the same.

2. Keeping the above in mind, a "TRUE" flyer won't present itself unless it's a whole lot worse than a 9. I don't have the time to dig thru my data, but you might be looking somewhere in the range of the 5 ring Indoors or great conditions Outdoors.

In summation, and maybe being correct that around the 5-ring would identify "TRUE" flyers, I think your "Golden Bull" shouldn't be utilized or implemented on something that's better than a shot that lands somewhere around the 5-ring.

All in all, I do believe the concept has a lot of merit and in most cases it would help alleviate the problem of IR50 scores being skewed away from a statistical correlation to precision, which you mentioned when you alluded to "True Scoring".

Remember, just some food for thought, and I thought I'd offer it since I shot my first IR50 match this summer. So I'm entitled to an opinion! Had to travel all the way to Wisconsin from Nebraska to do it though! LOL

Landy
 
Guys tend to B**** about all manner of things as well as developing a fine tuned sense of blaming anything and everything but themselves. A true flier is likely something unexplained that literally drops into the black, I think I've seen maybe 2-3 in 20+ years.
Really, a mulligan on the target ? Where precisely in sanctioned shooting sports is this allowed ?
Pity the day it ever comes to pass.... Two decades of records, hall of fame points, up in smoke in one swipe of the pen.
Sure hope it never comes to pass, it will be an absolute nail in the coffin for shooting sports.

An FYI, Keith, as to " flyers" we've all seen recently ? You should really be careful about making statements like this because it is flat out wrong.
 
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Landy, if you say it, its alright with me! Nobody would question the devotion you've put into analyzing this stuff. For me, you are "The Most Interesting Man" in this world!!:) And you're entitled to an opinion whether you've shot a match or not. Your statistics are 2nd to none.
Guys, I parenthesized "fliers" as I'm not a believer in them either. There are too many variables to this & the most important one is ourselves. I agree 7s, 8s, & 9s, aren't "fliers" Most likely unfortunately, we've missed something on the range. Period.
Having thought about & just said that maybe the "flier" should be out in the 5 or 6 ring for "The Golden Bull" able to be utilized. I don't know. I agree with Tim that there should be no Mulligans. That's the sticky wicket about the whole thing.
I'm just relaying an idea that was met with a great deal of enthusiasm . A lot of laughter & ideas that just took off. It seemed like a little boost to the weekend that perhaps could alleviate a perceived problem.
Tim, I'm sick & tired of the "Two decades of Records", "Hall of Fame Points" argument. Who on God's green earth really gives a sheet about them? Where do you redeem them? Can you cash them in & get a few more days of life? Where is the Hall of Fame? WTF!!
A lot of organizations change with the times. Happens in all sports to grow. Has happened in all sports including the shooting sports to allow growth. There isn't going to be anything allowed to tarnish any of these accomplishments. And nothing will for those who care about them.
We need growth and therefore IMO we need some change. What those changes will be I have no idea. But we must be willing too. These rules were put in place I assume when factory equipment was used. We've outgrown that & rarely does anyone show up anymore with bone stock factory stuff. For obvious reasons.
Why can't we invoke some changes in our rules to hopefully increase some interest.
Will any of that attract new shooters? Probably not. But it might keep some that we already have & make things a little easier for those who want to enter.
End of rant before my 2nd cup of coffee!
"Think Enthusiasm"

Keith
 
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Seems to me that is like adding a Mulligan in professional golf. While I am sure it would make 1 competitor happy at any given time, I don't see it as being fair to the others. At the end of the day, crap happens to all of us and we have to learn to accept it. One day it may hurt you when you have an errant shot, the next it may help you when your competitor does.
 
Tim, I'm sick & tired of the "Two decades of Records", "Hall of Fame Points" argument. Who on God's green earth really gives a sheet about them? Where do you redeem them? Can you cash them in & get a few more days of life? Where is the Hall of Fame? WTF!!

You know who gives a sheet about them.....the guys that spent years and untold thousands to earn them before the folks without a clue or sense of tradition came on the scene.
Since the principle reason for the discussion is based largely on BS maybe, just maybe, you should give that some thought before you give it public discussion.
 
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There are no mulligans in precision shooting. Geesh! If I didn't know better I would say that it sounds like too many millennials have started shooting rimfire benchrest."Whaaaaa I missed a shot whaaaaaa. I wanna do over!"
 
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Flummoxed

Bill
You need to watch what you say on these forums. 'FLUMMOXED' Is important to the 'OLD DRAMA QUEEN' But no one else seams to respond to it. It must suck when a gun smith can win more Sporter Nationals than he can. The big thing the old queen can't get is the shooter had to pull the trigger at the right time. The Wizard Of Oz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Landy and Tim make very good points. Landy makes an excellent definition of what a
true flyer is. And Tim’s argument has merit with respect to prior accomplishments.

What more thought might be given to is the possibility of having several shooters
shooting several cards and the possibility of several shooters wanting to better there
score by shooting “ The Golden Bull”. I can also imagine a contest that has just finished
but one of the shooters is down by five points and is in third place but has the best X count.
He/She opts to shoot “ The Golden Bull”, makes the shot, picks up the five points, brings his/her score up to
250. With the highest X count he/she now is elevated to first place and the other two shooters are demoted.

Unless there is something about “ The Golden Bull” I haven’t understood, it seems to me to be unfair.

Bob
 
tim said:
Tim, I'm sick & tired of the "Two decades of Records", "Hall of Fame Points" argument. Who on God's green earth really gives a sheet about them? Where do you redeem them? Can you cash them in & get a few more days of life? Where is the Hall of Fame? WTF!!

You know who gives a sheet about them.....the guys that spent years and untold thousands to earn them before the folks without a clue or sense of tradition came on the scene.
Since the principle reason for the discussion is based largely on BS maybe, just maybe, you should give that some thought before you give it public discussion.
Click to expand...

Tim, I don't think I got my point across. Nobody wants to take away from the accomplishments of shooters past records or make it easier to get Hall of Fame points. And my point wasn't about the Golden Bull but rather any rule changes that may be mentioned with resistance for the above reasons. I just feel like changes in the sport doesn't diminish in any way what others have accomplished previously so why hold it back by not allowing them?
I don't know if the golden bull thing is a good idea for the sport or not. All I'm saying is that it created quite a buzz & was met with some enthusiasm.

Keith
 
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