Tell me about stock balance

John Kielly

John Kielly

Shari's fan club
I shoot with F class & 1000 yard benchrest with the same rifle & have the same problem with both disciplines.

My rifle rotates to the right in the bags, usually lifting off the front bag in the process. In compliance with Aussie F standard rules, I'm shooting a .308 Winchester with 155 grain projectiles at around 3000 fps. The stock is TR (Palma prone) derived & consequently has a deepish forend once a 3" wide plate for the bag is fitted & the butt has been built up for a bag riding flat bottom. In essence, it's not all that different in any significant dimension to the Tooley MBR clones I've seen out here.

I shoot more or less free recoil, depending on conditions (& particularly topography when I'm shooting off my belly), but when I restrain the stock, I take the recoil on the ball of my thumb, not the shoulder. I've dispensed with the adjustable cheekpiece entirely & shoot with my head completely clear of the stock.

Eventually, I'll get round to fitting a more conventional BR stock, but as I don't see that this one is all that off the money, how can I go about balancing it so it rides the bags better?

John
 
I thought that when they talk about ballance ("recoil ballanced") they were talking about the ballance front to back. I think you want the ballance point to be somewhere around the front of the action. I guess I am a little cloudy on the whole "ballance" thing.

You guys "in the know" should let us know!!

Tod
 
John Kielly said:
I shoot with F class & 1000 yard benchrest with the same rifle & have the same problem with both disciplines.

My rifle rotates to the right in the bags, usually lifting off the front bag in the process. In compliance with Aussie F standard rules, I'm shooting a .308 Winchester with 155 grain projectiles at around 3000 fps. The stock is TR (Palma prone) derived & consequently has a deepish forend once a 3" wide plate for the bag is fitted & the butt has been built up for a bag riding flat bottom. In essence, it's not all that different in any significant dimension to the Tooley MBR clones I've seen out here.

I shoot more or less free recoil, depending on conditions (& particularly topography when I'm shooting off my belly), but when I restrain the stock, I take the recoil on the ball of my thumb, not the shoulder. I've dispensed with the adjustable cheekpiece entirely & shoot with my head completely clear of the stock.

Eventually, I'll get round to fitting a more conventional BR stock, but as I don't see that this one is all that off the money, how can I go about balancing it so it rides the bags better?

John
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Not sure I understand, but if your stock is fabricated, get a straight edge and make sure the add-ons are straight. Look at your stock sliding in the bags, can you tell if it slides more from the rear or more from the front? I think this can be easy to track down. Good luck, I hope I understood right and maybe offered some viable help. Ron Tilley
 
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torque problem

I agree it sounds like a torque problem. I recall reading about a family of shooters, that won a lot of 600/1000 yard matches. In their unorthodox shooting style they gripped the forearm of their 6.5x284 benchguns and pulled down. I know it adds a variable to the equation, but it also effectively added weight to the rifle. Maybe they didn't shoot the smallest group of the match, but they sure won their share. It might be worth a try to prevent the gun from jumping out of the front bag and save that thumb!
 
With F Class rules you can't go wider than 3" forend so that leaves out being able to use a wider offset stock which is very effective countering the torque effect. On thing that may help is to use a taller butt stock which will act as a longer lever to resist the torque as well. I have seen people shoot a lot of 30magnums from the bench and some torque and misbehave badly yet the results on target are quite good, so consistency is the important thing. I wouln't think torque would be too bad with a 308 shooting a 155gr unless you are shooting a faster twist than required.
 
john sir,in addition to the excllent suggestions

i think your rifle looks like it is torqued to the right but rifles with right hand twist barrels will torque left first and then snap back to the right,the snapback can be seen easy but the left or [startup] torque is very rarely seen because it is so fast,it only torques up while the bullet is in the barrel ,once released the barrel snaps back the other direction and sometimes stronger then when it torqued up ,some tacticle shooters i have talked with said they control torque with the cheekpeice, as well you might try to hold the rear of the rifle in the pocket of your shoulder,i know it gives up free recoil but shooting on the benchrest stocks are the same set of problems except for the offset stocks such as the fletcher/tooley,i beleive dave said he could cut them at 3 inches wide and still with an offset .hope it works out for you sir. tim in tx
 
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John Kielly said:
I shoot with F class & 1000 yard benchrest with the same rifle & have the same problem with both disciplines.

My rifle rotates to the right in the bags, usually lifting off the front bag in the process. In compliance with Aussie F standard rules, I'm shooting a .308 Winchester with 155 grain projectiles at around 3000 fps. The stock is TR (Palma prone) derived & consequently has a deepish forend once a 3" wide plate for the bag is fitted & the butt has been built up for a bag riding flat bottom. In essence, it's not all that different in any significant dimension to the Tooley MBR clones I've seen out here.

I shoot more or less free recoil, depending on conditions (& particularly topography when I'm shooting off my belly), but when I restrain the stock, I take the recoil on the ball of my thumb, not the shoulder. I've dispensed with the adjustable cheekpiece entirely & shoot with my head completely clear of the stock.

Eventually, I'll get round to fitting a more conventional BR stock, but as I don't see that this one is all that off the money, how can I go about balancing it so it rides the bags better?

John
Click to expand...

What twist is it John?

The Berger 155's stabilise in a 14 twist bbl..for instance. So, shooting a 10 twist would be inducing more torque than is required.

Ben
 
Things seem to be getting better.

While my rifle ws being rebarrelled, I took a good look at the patched up stock & found that the rear bag block that I built was just a tad skewed. With the help if a straightedge & another tub of plastic bog, I rebuilt it straight & right under the barrel. A coat or two of paint & a piece of teflon sheet & it was ready to go. Oh yes, I sloped it down from front to back just a tad to maybe relieve the drag on the rear bag a shade during recoil.

The barrel is a tad heavier than the old one because of a slightly different profile, & the setup boosted to a more weight forward balance with the addition of 6 ounces of tuner.

I've only fired it once, at last weekend's first F class shoot of the year, but it's following thru really sweetly & doesn't seem to be torquing nearly as badly as it did. I'm having a new plate built for the front end with as much offset as the stock width will stand (remember it's an old Plama stock) to maybe sweeten up that issue a bit more.

Fingers crossed, it's all good.

Thanks again.

John
 
Looks like I've about got it beat, thanks to all your helpful suggestions.

Now the butt is trued, an offset front plate installed & all the running surfaces slicked with Sinclair teflon stickons, the little green bugger is running about as well as a tricked up prone stock can. I fired 23 straight at 1000 yards (F class) yesterday & the stock barely needed adjusting back to square during the whole string. The torquing is pretty much a thing of the past & my recovery is as quick as cycling a quadlocking action can be.

Thanks again.

John
 
John Kielly said:
Looks like I've about got it beat, thanks to all your helpful suggestions.

Now the butt is trued, an offset front plate installed & all the running surfaces slicked with Sinclair teflon stickons, the little green bugger is running about as well as a tricked up prone stock can. I fired 23 straight at 1000 yards (F class) yesterday & the stock barely needed adjusting back to square during the whole string. The torquing is pretty much a thing of the past & my recovery is as quick as cycling a quadlocking action can be.

Thanks again.

John
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John,

I am really glad to hear that you got your butt trued and that was all it was. It could have been worse.:)

Concho Bill
 
Tod Soeby said:
I thought that when they talk about ballance ("recoil ballanced") they were talking about the ballance front to back. I think you want the ballance point to be somewhere around the front of the action. I guess I am a little cloudy on the whole "ballance" thing.

You guys "in the know" should let us know!!

Tod
Click to expand...

I see that John got his problem fixed, and it wasn't a "ballance" problem. So, can anyone shed light on "PROPER" balance of a bench gun? I know guys who say it is all hogwash, and others say you absolutely must have a good ballance to shoot consistantly well. Since I don't know what-N-L anyone is talking about on this issue, I just nod in agreement, and keep my trap shut.;):D
 
Tod Soeby said:
I see that John got his problem fixed, and it wasn't a "ballance" problem. So, can anyone shed light on "PROPER" balance of a bench gun? I know guys who say it is all hogwash, and others say you absolutely must have a good ballance to shoot consistantly well. Since I don't know what-N-L anyone is talking about on this issue, I just nod in agreement, and keep my trap shut.;):D
Click to expand...

Tod,

IMO the balance you speak of is more critical in the lighter weight short range benchrest rifles. With a 17 lb long range gun I feel there is more flexibility in the balance. With the longer stocks used in most long range guns a balance point somewhere around 2 inches in front of the action is what I normally see. A gun that is too muzzle heavy will likely not behave well in the bags.
 
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