Stats for the USFT

T

therealld

Guest
I'll not ruin a thread STARTED as a Chistmas Well-wishing, so I'll begin a new one regarding stats for USFT here.

Stats arent truly very meaningful unless there is what is statistically called a "large number" of similar samples being evaluated. USFT's are CUSTOM guns, with very few being made the same, ESPECIALLY those put together for benchrest shooting. This isnt so strange, as I doubt there is a large number of ANY exact model airgun other than perhaps 10M German springuns being used the same way to shoot 25M BR.

Generally, the smallest sample considered to be a "large number" is 31, and right now, I suspect this would encompass about every USFT that has been shot at 25M off a bench for score, though of course, there were likely less than five set up just the same way. Of course this ALSO means that if you have stats from a PARTICULAR gun that's unique, sampling this one thoroughly gove a far idea of it's performance until things change.

Anyhow, trying to gather stats on the USFT's me and my club members use is like shooting at fast moving targets ... its rare for any one of them to be set up just the same from match to match! My one's change for sure about every month. Why?

We are using the match results to help judge the effect of changes being tested. I have seen some up and down results resulting from tests on power, pellet type, gun weight, front rest design changes, valve tuning, caliber evaluation (I've used .177, 5mm, and .22). I have also tested barrels in five different outside diameters, and also tested them from for different makers.

In general, we have also weighted development toward good performance at fifty yards, using essentially unlimited rules, which doesn't generally result in a rg that will shoot well when strangled down to short range at low power. We have only fired ONE match at 25M, and it was during a powerful rainstorm.

We have two shooters in our club with similarly set up rifles, and te seem to deliver nearly identical scores in our fifty yard matches. Testing in my 51 yard tunnel has shown mine, (which is one of those two) can easily average 1/2 MOA .

Outdoors at fifty yards, when firing one shot at each bull, some of us can hit a .20 circle more often than not with the open class guns.

I guess I'm not real big on stats ... match shooting to me is BEING there, and the conditions, shooters, and guns are an unknown every time. If this were NOT so, I guess I'd do something else with my time.
 
I must be missing something here as I am pretty much a realist and been at this game for a while.
Without stats you have no baseline to compare anything to.... but could be you are right.....you probably don't need them....... if you never plan on winning and let's not confuse stats with data.
Ignoring good science will put you in the winners circle every time. As for the correct number of stats for to get good data I have news for you it doesn't take me 31 shots to realize my gun is not shooting. If the first 3 do not go together I know something is afoot and am looking for something. If two go in the same spot shooting score...that's a called a pattern, best pay attention. If they are not 10's you best not be shooting 29 more eights before you make a decision.
I don't care what the foot pounds are or how far you are shooting.......Good solid data are the basic blocks of evaluating everything. A little history and logic are a real plus too if you operate in the real world.
Over the years we in the real accuracy field have found they beat guessing every single time.
I agree the more info the more accurate the data. As I recall that was first year engineering and accounting.
As for your club evaluating different methods/ items or tuning .I got a bit lost and confused in the dialog...Would you please inform us uninitiated just how you get reliable data shooting in the rain and your constant wind? I am not sure you are aware but good science dictates both move pellets in flight. So how do you possibly identify what the controlling factor is for any apparent change you might have made or better yet how do you reached a valid conclusion with so many things going on at once? I seem to recall the single carved in stone rule on evaluating..........Never change more than one thing at a time. Does that not apply out there?
......and 1/2" MOA at 50 yds....That is going to ruin you whole day and put you pretty much in last place the way guns are starting to shoot now, so you might want to step that game up a tad.
A gun that shoots .1 at 25 should all things being equal shoot .2 at 50 yds. and well built guns do and knowledgable people know this.
Now if you really want to get upset this holliday season take the new 50 meter BR target and shoot it for score. It has a .1 bull and compare that to the .2 target you are presently shooting. You will instantly find out you now need twice the accuracy to get the same score.
I personally would be concentrating real hard on learning how to clean the 25 yd target before I ventured out to 50. Stats indicate if you perfected the 25 yard game the 50 would come a whole bunch easier.
This game is changing fast in a lot of areas and we collectivly need to figure out how to get ahead of it. I can assure you it won't be done with haphazard guess work, shades of gray, bad workmanship and no solid data.
....and as for the sampling and citing a single gun for stats until something changes.....
FYI the object here, if you are after real accuracy, is to get the gun tuned so things DO NOT change or better yet buy one where the engineering eliminates potential areas of change. Facts are a gun that remains stable and is consistent,(key word) will most likely win. No rocket science here.
Anyone who knows didly about basic accuracy, knows that two identical guns will never be set up the same to acheive the same accuracy. How could that possibly be? Every molecule among other things in each gun would have to be exact and your chances of that happening are zero to none.
.....and on a last note as for "strangling" one down to shoot well at 25 yds you might want to give Steve George a call....I believe he has that issue figured out.... and he did it with one of your new barrels.

.

Have a great Xmas season.....
 
Last edited by a moderator:
My guns have a note book that goes with them. In that book is all of the information detailing it's build. I collect data on every environmental and physical condition at the time I go to the bench. I have never had any luck building a gun or any precision machine without historical data as a map to guide my decisions in build development. I usually spend the time between matches going over the data collected on the gun shot in the match and comparing that information with the actual targets shot at the match. Using the two forms of information data and target I can then evaluate performance and make the required adjustments , good ones I hope. To my mind without good solid accurate data you will miss the most important observation of all , no change at all , without a solid benchmark to build from I'm just waisting time and money. As far as stats for a particular model of air rifle go I think you can gather pretty good information from as few as 4 guns of the same model unless it is a truly custom gun. A truly custom gun is one that was made from a unique set of plans produced only one time never to be produced again. The guns we speak of come from an assemblage of mass produced parts either made by large scale mass production or job shop production and then assembled and tuned hopefully then the process is repeated. In both cases statistical averages are easy to get and an important part of the purchasing decision or in other words is this gun good enough to use as a foundation for my bench gun. The down fall to a truly custom gun is that it is unique and unique is another way of saying you are on your own.
Doug
 
Thank you Doug Shea!..................I just knew I was not the only one that had this figured out.
I wonder Sir if this apparent logic is the reason you shoot so well?

Frank
 
Yah know Frank,

I'm not sure why you ask anything, since you already know it all.

I jes bumble along in my own way, not askin anybody of anything, yet it seems you are constantly askin for input, then using the answers as a platform to beat yer drum.

Your pseudo "humor" doesnt hide your nearly endless putdowns of essentially any and all you talk to, and I, for one, have had enough of it.

Please make the effort and refrain from communicating with me again, ever.
 
I do belive that we have opened up a can of worms. And yes it can rain in South Carolina.
Larry B
 
Dear LD, thank you for your most informative response. I shall try to clarify and in the end regretfully honor your request as I believe you have much to offer.
I ask questions to get answers because I am smart enough to know I do not know it all. Your answers or statments are items that I in good conscious require both clarification and qualification on. You obviously are not willing to participate in open debate to validate either as you answered not a single question and resorted to uncalled for character assination.
We are dealing in the finest form of shooting on the planet here and generalitys and bumbling along as you called it are not goin to make it. It is time to get real and start dealing in solid facts. You may not believe this but we have some VERY talented and smart people over here.
It is not that I concider myself in that categatory but do have a very inquiring mind. I as well as the rest of the air rifle world simply await your input and knowledge hoping we might learn something and it to be valid enough for open evaluation and discussion.......
Did you not start this thread?
We may require accurate data on certain issues to validate a particular point of view. This is how solid decisions are made. You are an engineer you know this. We do not deal in BS or shades of gray in this field. It may work wonders on can shooters and wantabe's but it won't work here. This is a totally different very exacting game. We often disagree with each other at times but willingly and openly discuss the merits of each others point of view, we become enlightened and the sport advances. It does not remain "Backwater" as your FT shooters like to call their disipline. It is backwater only because they wish to keep it backwater. It is heart breaking to watch for us who love this sport.
... The majority remain closed minded and lead like sheep with some players having a very vested interest in keeping it that way.
We on the other hand simply learn from each other knowing any information offered is truthfull and valid, will stand on it's own merits and be open for discussion.

What we do not do is take our marbles and go home when the game is not going our way.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Lots of stats om the old UKBR22 forum results pages going back many seasons.

Using low power when compared to USA levels air.

There is a trend there and exotic doesn't cut it.

I used to shoot what worked and went to the dark side, average tumbled and now I am happy but wasted lots of time getting here especially as I prefer another game and hunting.

If I had to buy/compete with only one gun at International level I know what it would be.

Oh divide and conquor. Who said that? Can't be bothered to Google.

Monkey
 
Its good you are happy "Simmo". Most of our club members are also hunters and shooters in other disciplines. We have a couple regular shooters using springers at our little club that enjoyed shooting airgun BR as done in our own peculiar way. Our "stats" are always published in the sector provided on our own Forum and the result for each and every match we have held are posted (monthly for the last thee years). But we play for fun, and change the game once in awhile to keep it interesting for us, so the results are often a bit confusing for those that don't actually shoot with us ... its not a real issue for us at all though.

Have a nice Holy Day Season.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top