Salem Results 2/18

Renegade

Renegade

New member
Paul Bendix made the trip over from Boston to join Rick and I in what turned out to be more of a pellet testing session for Paul and I. Rick Ingraham has his Dawson/Benchmark set up for Open class, shooting very well at around 32fpe while Paul shot his Steyr at 18fpe and I started at 20fpe with my Dawson/Lilja, experimented at 25fpe and went back to 20fpe. We're all a little rusty at reading the flags after shooting indoors all winter and I found out pretty quickly that my 18" Lilja take-off RF barrel isn't going to shoot any better as an airgun barrel than it did as a rimfire Sporter barrel. Interestingly, it behaved the same way on both guns: It shoots great indoors or in very light wind, but will not shoot in the wind.

We had a nice start to our match with bright sunshine, temp around 35 and light breezes, but that changed right after the first target when the clouds rolled in and the breeze picked up to 10+mph and became switchy.

Rick won 4 of the 6 targets with Paul and I splitting the other two.
Here are the scores:
Paul Bendix 231-4X, 237-4X, 238-6X, agg 706-14X Match 2-214-2X, 225-2X, 231-1X, agg 670-5X
Todd Banks 241-6X, 236-6X, 235-4X, agg 712-16X Match 2- 238-7X, 239-3X, 233-7X, agg 710-17x
Rick Ingraham 240-5X, 244-8X, 238-3X, agg 722-16X Match 2-245-7X, 241-9X, 246-8X, agg 732-24X
Thanks to Pete Roberson who stopped by to score for us!

We are going to try to schedule an outdoor match in mid-March for the US-UK postal. This is the first time I can remember ever being able to drive down to the outdoor benches before mid-April, so we'll have to hope this weather pattern holds so we can get that match in!
Todd Banks
 
Todd and Rick,
Thanks for having a shoot on such short notice. Hope David is on the mend for the next Pinnacle match.
500 miles today and all I did was shoot my wind flag tails. That might explain the 4 flat tires. Had snow showers from Cambridge, Ny to Exit 3 of the Mass Pike on the way home.
Pete thanks for scoring for us.

Todds Dawson
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Rick's Dawson

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Rick, Todd, Paul
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Todd's Mahogany target frames. Before the match not much wind. By the second card wind tails were straight up alot.

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16 Benches Club house is 75 yards from range.

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Rick that Dawson and Barrel are shooting great. Todd the Lilja is too short for a tomato stake!

Remind me to pay you for the match. Sorry.

Paul
 
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"shoots great indoors or in very light wind, but will not shoot in the wind."

Never read forums before bed, makes for sleepless nights.

Before I post the above quote on the rimfire side, anyone have any theories/ideas/thoughts on how this can be or is it just another thing we accept on face value?
 
Thanks for making the trip Paul .I wish more had made it . It was a rare pleasure to be able to shoot out side in mid February . Beaning dressed for it ,when the sun was out it was nice and a bit cold when it was cloudy . I have a lot of work to do on the Dawson , but it is going well . I think 32 ft/lb and 18 gr. pellets gave me some advantage in the tricky wind . I am very happy with the 3 grove Benchmark, Dawson combo . Thanks for the air Todd ,I hope my air guy gets home from vacation soon as I have a loot of testing I wood like to do this week . Keep shooting and see you all down the road . Rick
 
Tod, interesting comparison on the barrel. Seems logical that all the criteria required to make it work as a rimfire would still apply in the airgun arena. The basics are still the same, we are still trying to stabilize a projectile in flight.

Now what is mind boggling is the statement on a barrel shooting well indoors and not out. I have heard this several times both in centerfire and rimfire benchrest but never witnessed it myself as it makes no sense. Does not mean it is not true it just means I do not understand it. It is however a very interesting subject as Steve relates. I have however talked to a bbl maker that is on his 5th year inside and states he sees no difference in a gun that shoots well inside and does not shoot well outside. He also stated that others in the field feel the same way. I think he used the words "BS" when I posed the question. He stated he has heard of this throughout the years but never witnessed it.

The only thing that comes to my mind is this: let's suppose the twist rate works fine in little or no conditions BUT is right on the ragged edge. When outside it is buffeted by conditions taking it over the edge increasing both drag and gyroscopic spin OR we have a set of different atmospheric conditions that come in to play or a combination of both.

I would like to see some comment and input on this enigma as to why you and other great shooters think this is, out side of the obvious on the target. How are you seperating the bbl from condition reading in your assesment?
Come on guys what are your thoughts?

Frank
 
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Tod, casual observation and hate to bring this up but I believe regulations state the muzzle has to be over the end of the bench not in the middle.

Frank
 
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Frank,
The reason I took that Lilja off my Sako Sporter was that I felt that I was handicapping myself by about a foot against the other shooters. :eek: That, and it wouldn't shoot over a 245 on a good day!

As far as the indoor/outdoor phenomenon, here's a little story. Several years ago, not long after Eley reintroduced the round nose bullet, three of us here at Salem tested one lot of Eley Match(black box) indoors in January. All three of us were shooting 250-22+X on every single target we shot. We thought we'd found the Holy Grail of ammo and ordered a case each. Along comes April and our first practice session outdoors. That ammo was the worst crap we had ever shot in the wind. It would blow an inch in a 5mph breeze. We thought maybe it was a temp. thing so we held on to it to try in warmer temps. It was still crap and all three of us sold what we had left to the 3-position shooters.

I believe the only variable that makes a difference between indoor and outdoor shooting is the wind, or lack of it. Certain barrel/ammo combinations just will not shoot in the wind. It could be a stabilization issue, or perhaps the depth of the engraving on the bullet. A lot of the rimfire barrel manufacturers are offering "minimally invasive" barrels, with shallower grooves. I'll be interested to see how the FX smooth twist barrels shoot in the wind. Another factor with rimfire guns that I've experienced myself is the relationship between barrel twist rate and outside temperature. Many believe that a 17.5 twist barrel will shoot better in hot weather than a 16 twist. Will that make a difference with air rifles?

It's going to be a very interesting year in Air Rifle Benchrest! New barrels, actions and stock designs are on the way. Which ones will be winners? I don't know, but I hope it's the combination I'm shooting:D
Todd
 
Well Tod that is pretty convincing evidence on the lot of Eley particularly with 3 people experiencing the same thing and being shot at the same time. That's the kind of testing I like to see. The answer is out there we just have to find it.................Thanks for the input.

If I might ask what was the temperature difference between the indoor test and the outdoor test? The reason for the question is this, some years ago at my testing facility in NM a customer of mine and a real good smallbore BR shooter had a super gun in my tube in about 100 degrees temperature to test a lot of ammo. The stuff did not shoot for diddly. I took the ammo and put it into a cold pack with ice for a couple of hours and dropped the core temperature down to 72 degrees and it shot like hell. Needless to say we were amazed and educated at the same time.

Frank
 
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Hay Todd If I were thinking of a reason that the barrel could do 248 inside and not so good out side it wood be the barrels internal issue that might not show as bad an effect on performances in side ( with less external influences ) than outside with the wind . Most of those in the know say that the slandered 3 grove tight boor rim fire is to big to do well . But at least 2 shooters are doing well with one . Is one better off with a barrel that is a regular 247 - 250 no mater the out side environment or a touchy 250 that is affected poorly by the outside environment ? ? ? Rick
 
Frank,
We usually set the thermostats in the indoor range at about 60 degrees and it was 35 outside yesterday. The only way to tell if it was a temp. issue would be to shoot the same pellet/rifle combination outside in comparable conditions, and that Lilja definitely will not be on my rifle when the temp gets up to 60 degrees outside in 2-3 months.

Rick, I'll take the 247-250 barrel. I've had my share of rimfire rifles/ammo that would only shoot in certain conditions and you just can't go into a match with confidence if those conditions are not present.
Todd
 
Me also ( 247-250) but I well continue to search for that all the time 250 barrel . Is there one out there ???
 
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