Sako extractor questions.

[Squeal]

Good evening all. I just built my first semi-custom on a Remington Sportsman 78 action. Basically a 700 action. The c-clip style extractor is Kaput. It was recommended to me to install a Sako style extractor. This is a LA and chambered in .220 Swift. Can you please give me all the pros and cons of this "Fix". I know nothing about Sako extractors. But this extracting every case with a cleaning rod is getting real old........Thanks T.

 

[Dennis Sorensen]

I would suggest you simply get the 700 extractor fixed.

I am taking the liberty of posting what Jackie and I posted about this quite some time ago...

Sako and Sako extractors... there is nothing wrong with them. They are strong and safe, but I do feel the Remington bolt head set up is superior to the Sako setup in strength and safety.

Sako extractors in a Remington. They are strong BUT they are not as strong and safe as the original 700 set up. Remington's 3 rings of steel surrounding the case head support the brass under extreme pressure as no other set up does. The case does not rupture due to all the support. You may not be able to open the bolt, and when removing the barrel you find the case head "welded" to the bolt face. I have seen that with a 222. The brass almost had to be machined off the bolt. I had to install a new extractor and there was no other damage to the rifle. I had one case of a 303 British fired in a 7mm Mag... I had to remove the barrel as the bolt was locked shut, but the case removed from the bolt face then with no damage at all. These incidents show how great the design is of the 700 system. I do not think there is a better extractor system. That is my belief anyway. I have seen other commercial actions blown to pieces or damaged beyond repair. I have never seen that of a 700. (Not to say it has not happened, but it must be rare)

The angle of ejection is changed a lot with the Sako conversion. Take a factory 700 bolt and look at the face of it. Take a case and insert it into the bolt face and observe where the ejector wants to push it. That angle is only slightly higher than straight sideways. With the Sako extractor fitted as close to the top of the right locking lug as you can, the angle of ejection with a fired case is high enough to always hit a 30mm scope tube with low mounts, or the windage adjustment turret. A fired case is shorter than a loaded round and has no weight at the front of it to help hold it down. I found out all this when I did the first and only conversion I have done, on a customer’s request. The conversion was done perfectly and as close to the locking lug as possible. I encountered no problems doing it. I recommend not doing the conversion now.

With a Sako style conversion, you remove the total support of the design when you machine a slot length wise to install the Sako extractor. This causes a weaker area where one of the 3 rings of steel has now been removed. Total support has been reduced, and if a case ruptures the gases may blow back through this area with the extractor. It is the weakest link in the support of the case now.

I feel the conversion to Sako style is unsafe... it isn't as strong or safe as the original 700 extractor and the angle of ejection changes a lot... enough to cause some people problems.

I have had very few problems with 700 extractors.
Dennis

Posted by Jackie:
Keep in mind that there is nothing wrong with any of these extractors.....UNLESS you have some sort of catastrophic occurrence, such as a blown case head. As Dennis said, even in this event, a Remington has no place to go. It is the safest bolt face made. The "three rings of Steel" does work.
With sliding plate extractors, there is very little room for any thing to escape either. It is not, in the end, as safe as a Remington, but nothing else is either.
The Remington Sako modification is the least safe as far as containing shrapnel if some thing really bad happens. We have discussed this quite a few times on the Forums, and I personally know of one incidence where a Sako Extractor ended up in a shooters brain when he blew a case head off of a 243 Ackley. This episode was so severe that the brass was litterally welded to the bolt face. The Sako extractor was blown straight back through the bolt race way. The shooter just happened to be a lefty, shooting a right hand bolt rifle with the modifications.
So two things had to happen to cause the injury. First, the shooter made a horrific mistake by accidentally shooting a load that was this hot. Second, he was left handed, looking right into that right race way. If he had been right handed, the extractor probably would have missed him. But even at that, it is not a good thing to have pieces of metal flying out the back of the action.
When the subject of Sako Extractors in Remington’s comes up, the same conclusion is usually met. That being, thousands have been performed, and I know of only this one instance where something really bad happened. Case failures are extremely rare. In fact, 99 percent of these types of failures can be attributed to gross shooter error. The Remington-Sako conversion provides a very efficient alternative to the Remington, as it is a very good system. I even have a couple myself
So, is the Sako Conversion OK. Yes, unless you experience the rare occurrence of a split case or a blown head.
It is my contention that one of these days, something like I described is going to happen, and a sharp lawyer is going to get a Gunsmith on the stand and say this. "You took what is arguably the safest bolt face in the world, and by a modification, performed by you, rendered it the most unsafe bolt face in the world." Millions of dollars could be involved........Jackie

 

[Squeal]

Thank you.

Thanks Dennis for the quick and informative reply. I had not considered that issue at all. This conversion was recommended to me by a very highly regarded and well known Smith. I had heard hints of problems but was unaware of what they were. I have a new extractor on order and I really hope that it will fix the issue. Otherwise I am not sure what other tack to take. Thanks again for that great re-post. T.

 

[Don]

Wonder why Dave Kiff/Pacific Reamers choose to use a Sako style extractor configuration for his new proposed one-piece Remington bolts?

My guess is the same reason for choosing a retrofit Sako extractor........much easier to tune the extractor to grab both PPC and BR caseheads, although I have found, with the correct shimming, a stock Remington extractor can also do the same thing...........Don

adendum; also the difficulty in cutting the factory Remington multi-radiused extractor nose configuration with retention lip. Wonder how difficult this was to do for Stiller and his drop-port action bolts?

 

[Dennis Sorensen]

Dave offers the bolts with the 700 extractor for the .222 and the .308 sizes but not in the Standard Magnum size which puzzles me...?

But I don't think he uses the Sako extractor, I think he uses a larger one.

 

[Dennis Sorensen]

Thanks Dennis for the quick and informative reply. I had not considered that issue at all. This conversion was recommended to me by a very highly regarded and well known Smith. I had heard hints of problems but was unaware of what they were. I have a new extractor on order and I really hope that it will fix the issue. Otherwise I am not sure what other tack to take. Thanks again for that great re-post. T.

Originally the conversion was done to accommodate the PPC case on a 700 action... Why only part of the Sako extractor system was used I don't know. Perhaps the idea that the Sako "bolt guide" was actually a safety device escaped those who pioneered the conversion. Or the fact that catastrophic case failures are rather rare.

The problem I have today with those conversions is very few of the owners know what they are getting into... perhaps many of those doing the conversion don't realize it either. I simply wish if you are thinking about having the conversion done you have the facts before hand.

The design of the Model 700 action is superior to any other mass-produced bolt action ever made, and that by installing only part of the extractor system from a Sako (2 locking lug action) completely compromises that design. The alteration does not make it happen. But the alteration is completely unsafe when it happens. We are talking about a catastrophic case failure. They do not occur on a regular basis.

A Sako extractor is safe in a two lug Sako so why shouldn't it be safe in a two lug Remington? ... Because when people install the Sako extractor in a Remington they do not install the Sako bolt guide, which is the safety design incorporated in the Sako. That bolt guide is there to protect the shooter and anyone close to the shooter if a case fails drastically. I do not understand why anyone would knowingly install only part of the Sako system. If the Sako extractor and the Sako bolt guide were installed then the Remington would be as safe as a Sako. Not as strong and safe as the Remington was before alteration but safe.

Here is a picture of how well the Sako "bolt guide" deflected/prevented debris from exiting down the bolt race way...

 

[Don]

Dennis,

What is story on this Sako blow-up and what appears to be a huge gap between the end of the barrel thread locktite (black threaded area), possibly indicating the end of the barrel, and the bolt nose?..............Don

Originally the conversion was done to accommodate the PPC case on a 700 action... Why only part of the Sako extractor system was used I don't know. Perhaps the idea that the Sako "bolt guide" was actually a safety device escaped those who pioneered the conversion. Or the fact that catastrophic case failures are rather rare.

The problem I have today with those conversions is very few of the owners know what they are getting into... perhaps many of those doing the conversion don't realize it either. I simply wish if you are thinking about having the conversion done you have the facts before hand.

The design of the Model 700 action is superior to any other mass-produced bolt action ever made, and that by installing only part of the extractor system from a Sako (2 locking lug action) completely compromises that design. The alteration does not make it happen. But the alteration is completely unsafe when it happens. We are talking about a catastrophic case failure. They do not occur on a regular basis.

A Sako extractor is safe in a two lug Sako so why shouldn't it be safe in a two lug Remington? ... Because when people install the Sako extractor in a Remington they do not install the Sako bolt guide, which is the safety design incorporated in the Sako. That bolt guide is there to protect the shooter and anyone close to the shooter if a case fails drastically. I do not understand why anyone would knowingly install only part of the Sako system. If the Sako extractor and the Sako bolt guide were installed then the Remington would be as safe as a Sako. Not as strong and safe as the Remington was before alteration but safe.

Here is a picture of how well the Sako "bolt guide" deflected/prevented debris from exiting down the bolt race way...

 

[Dennis Sorensen]

No it was a bad hand load in a factory .243 rifle.