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BigBlack

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Okay new reloader still learning as much as possible. I have been working on my 243 loads and am getting MOA groups at 100 yards pretty consistently now. Preparing it for hunting I fine tuned the scope adjustments and then popped off a few groups at 200 yards. Surprisingly my groups were only about 1.25" to 1.5" consistently. So at 100 yards I am about 1 MOA consistently then at 200 yards .6 to .7 MOA, why not closer to 2 MOA. I was under the impression (remember new reloader here) that if my group size was 1" at 100 yards I could expect 2" at 200 yards and 3" at 300 yards and so on.

Wind was relatively nonexistent this trip.

Not looking for flames only instruction or enlightenment.

Thanks
BB
 
I was under the impression (remember new reloader here) that if my group size was 1" at 100 yards I could expect 2" at 200 yards and 3" at 300 yards and so on.


Things are not always what they seem, 1" doesnt equate to 2" at 200, or 3" 300. all it means is that at 100 your rifle shoots and inch, at 200 or 300 it could be anything from smaller to a total miss.
 
the math is flawed

as are lots of things when you get into lots of different parts trying to converge and repeat the same thing over and over with a human hand guiding all the parts.

figure the math this way would you be twice as tired if u carried 5 gallons of water up a 2 mile hill compared to a 1 mile hill? or would you be like me and end up with less water at the end of the 2 mile walk due to comsumption.

to make it easy some bullets don't seem to settle down at 100 yards hence larger moa groups at shorter ranges and some bullets just won't carry at longer range hence small short range group and WHERE DID THAT BULLET GO at long range.

i know i didn't really answer the question but there are some things math just won't answer in the world of shooting
 
I've been told and have read that it's absolutely impossible for groups at long(er) range to be smaller in MOA than groups at short range, but I've found that some sure seem to. Some bullets seem to need more time to "go to sleep" or whatever too.

If you want good groups at 200 or 300 yards shoot at those ranges, since the load that gives the best accuracy at 100 yards might not do well at 200 or 300 yards or longer distances.
 
Random event

If you had shot these same loads at 100 yards on this particular day, your groups may have been .75 MOA. In other words, the loads were working very good for the conditions you had and tomorrow with different conditions, especially wind, things could be drastically different. Were you shooting with wind flags or without? Randy J.
 
If you had shot these same loads at 100 yards on this particular day, your groups may have been .75 MOA. In other words, the loads were working very good for the conditions you had and tomorrow with different conditions, especially wind, things could be drastically different. Were you shooting with wind flags or without? Randy J.

Randy please read question again, basically I do not believe wind flags whether with or without would matter for the question asked. Or do wind flags now change mathematics too.?
 
I was under the impression (remember new reloader here) that if my group size was 1" at 100 yards I could expect 2" at 200 yards and 3" at 300 yards and so on.

That's not what you should expect. If you were shooting in a vacuum that would be the case, but bullets have to fly though the atmosphere. Ballistic computer programs are a decent approximation of the bulk effect of the atmosphere on a bullet, but most only take into account the effect of drag and crosswind. Even with hat simple model the effect of crosswind and velocity dispersion increase more than linearly with distance since bullets slow down with distance. Vertical dispersion caused by bullet muzzzle velocity variation must increse with the square of the time of flight, which must be greater than the square of the distance. So for long range the linear approximation is not realistic. Winning group aggregates at 1000 yards (nearly) always much more than ten times the size (in inches, not moa) of winning aggregates shot at 100 yards,

But the real picture is much more compliicated. All spin stabilized bullets which have forces on them other than directly along the spin axis will precess. Precession is the way a toy gyroscope behaves if it's spinning staniding on its spin axis. If you bump it the axis will rotate slowly (much slower than the top is spinning) and it will slowly stand back to vertical agian. If its not spinning fast enough it will roatate slowly as it falls over on it's side Bullets do esentially the same thing.

The forces whiich arren't along the spin axis come from several sources. They can be initial condiitions from forces applied as the bullet leaves the muzzle. These may come from the bullet being asymentric, the muzzle blast being asymentric, from crosswind as the bullet leaves the muzzle, or in all cases except shooting vertically the force can come continuously along the trajectory from the acceleration of gravity pulling the bullet(downward) while the bullet tries to fly nose first into the air. . In all cases these asymentric forces cause the bullet nose to precess with a relatively slow conical motion, resulting in the bullets path being helical around what it's trajectory would be as calculated by drag and crosswinds alone. The diameter of the helix depends on many factors. For short low drag benchrest bullets it can be tiiny, in the order of a millimeter. For very heavy long VLD bullets it can be inches.

If all of the forces were identical with each shot then each bullet would precess exactly the same and all bullets would inpact the same spot. It's possible to come close to doing that as benchrest shooters regularly demonstrate, even at 1000 yards. It's also possible though, as in the case of the top standing back upright for a bullet to reduce the diameter of the helix with distance. That does not override drag or wind defelction, it just adds to it. It is a common phenomina when shooting at moderate distances with low drag bullets to see smallest angular group sizes at some intermediate distance, You can be sure if you shot at even longer range the groups will open up again due to geometnry, wind deflection, and velocty dispersion.

The common ballistics programs say nothing about precession effects. THere are programs which do calculate bullet precession, , but the results are so sensitive to initial conditions that it's useless for actually predicting point of impact. It can be useful for predicting the diameter of the helix, but even that doesn't offer much aid to a shooter in achieving better accuracy compared to just loading for consistancy.

For an excellent mathematical dissertation on the above subject i recommend Robert F. McCoy's book "Modern Exterior Ballistics". Don't read it if you want to be a better shooter. At best it will cause you worry and at worst you'll give up hope of ever shooting well. If you design bullets and rifles it's worth studying.
 
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Dr4nra

I reread his question again as you suggested, which asked why he was getting smaller groups, MOA wise at a 200 yards when compared to 100 yards. The data he had was from two different days so a plausible explanation for smaller ratio of group size compared to distance is that the conditions that affect exterior ballistics, such as wind, temperature, humidity, etc., were different on the day that he shot at 200 yards that the days that he had been shooting at 100 yards. On that particular day for the 200 yards, if he had shot some groups at 100 yards he may well have gotten smaller than usual 100 yard groups.

Something similar happened to a friend of mine. He was very familiar to handloading and went out to shoot 3 shot groups to find a load for a very expensive gun in .270 caliber. He found a super-dooper load. The group was near quarter inch while all others were around MOA or just under. He went home and loaded up a hundred to use at the local chicken shoot 4 days later. He was extremely disappointed as the load didn't shoot the same. It now was a little over 1 MOA. That load/gun just never repeated the results he achieved earlier. He ended up taking all the left over loads apart and started his quest again. The point being that the opposite can also happen. A load that is OK (shooting MOA in this case) can under certain conditions have improved results. That is what I believe happened for him. That is all I was trying to explain in my earlier post. If he continues to shoot at 200 yards and his groups are almost always smaller ratio-wise than his 100 yard groups then he would have to look elsewhere for an explanation other than mine.

If he isn't shooting over flags then he will have a harder time determining why. That was my reasoning for mentioning the flags. Randy J.
 
OK, I think we have gone off the mark on this question.

Elvis did bring up a good point parallax, most non parallax adjustable scopes are set for 100 yards, any further than that it seems to move the X hairs, and focus is a little fuzzy, so if that was the cause, then one would think group size would have went up not down. But good food for thought.

2. He didnt state when he reloaded the rounds whether they were necked, or full length resized. Depending on which could have made the diffrence. But he stated he was tuning it for hunting, in which I assumed that he full length sized them for dependability of feed in a hunting situation.

3. His group was not really out of the ball park for the caliber, also it might be possible that he just wasnt trying to hit the same hole as hard at the 200 yard mark as he was at 100.

4. The reason I was against the wind flag comment was again he said he was tuning it for hunting, I have never seen a person yet who used wind flags in an actual hunting enviroment, so why use them in your practice for such?

Lastly, Yes he found a good load for that particular rifle. My point was that you cannot count on the math being right in real world shooting conditions, which others on here have tried to state as well. He is off in a good direction, and my only other comment would be to practice with it in the way you intend to use it, if its a hunting rifle practice that way, if its a bench gun use the wind flags. He is learning and if we dont muddy the water with alot of off the wall stuff, he will probably get more satisfaction out of the reloading hobby and have a better hunting experience to boot.

Good shooting
DR
 
OK, I think we have gone off the mark on this question.

Elvis did bring up a good point parallax, most non parallax adjustable scopes are set for 100 yards, any further than that it seems to move the X hairs, and focus is a little fuzzy, so if that was the cause, then one would think group size would have went up not down. But good food for thought.


Leupold (and many others) are fixed at 150 yards.
 
Leupold (and many others) are fixed at 150 yards.

Tyler, I have checked the sites of Burris, Nikon, Bushnell, Simmons and Leupold, and all except leupold give parallax settings as 100 yards, this is for the burris fullfield, Nikon monarchs, Bushnell elite series 3200 - 6200, and the simmons Aetec. The 100 yard parallax free has been the standard for some 30 years and other than Leupold it hasnt changed, I mean even Swarovski lists thier parallax settings as 100 meters, 110 yards. So if you can find another manufacturer other than Leupold that is 150 yrds. please post here
 
fixed or adjustable parallax

Whether fixed or adjustable, the manufacturer's numbers or specs are, usually, just a close guesstimate. And statisticians will tell us that group size will vary by, what, 100%?

O.K., I wanna get to a rant. Guy in deer camp last weekend complained, again, about the trouble ("You know, I'm still not comfortable...") he's having with his Burris 3x9 Ballistic Plex scope. That reticle, although in the 4.5x14 version, is that accepted "deal" by many in the camp, where shots tend to be 300ish and longer. I inquired further about the trouble he was having with the hash marks on the scope. He said he had trouble "seeing the hash marks on a black target."


Well, I thought I'd go slow. I asked how much he had actually shot the scope in the field. This is a deer and elk gun, remember. "About as much as my new Leupold," he answered, which meant not at all. Then we were interrupted, so I wasn't able to ask the obvious questions:


Have you tried sighting in with a different colored target?
Or
Is that tag you drew really for only black targets?


Thanks, I feel a little better.
 
You're right. The Euros are at 110 yards. I was under the impression they weren't 100, but thought they were 150. I suppose Leupold and maybe Leica would be the only 150 yard parallax scopes. I couldn't find parallax for Bushnell, Burris, Weaver, Trijicon, or Nightforce.
 
doc

DR4NRA;456506 4. The reason I was against the wind flag comment was again he said he was tuning it for hunting said:
Well, it has to do with optimizing your rifles accuracy and doing so with-in a finite set of parameters.
Shooting without flags negates any true accuracy interpretation of any given rifle or load.......it's like a poll.....just a snapshot of an event at one point in time.
This is perhaps the biggest reason why the average hunter has trouble understanding why his rifle shoots to different POI at each outing.
In addition, although I have been known to place survey ribbons around my stands, an estute hunter can use various natural wind displaying elements, trees, vegetation, etc. to aid in getting the bullet to it's mark.

BB- it has been my experience that wind is rarely non-existent.It is a simple matter to tie ribbons to stakes. Try placing them along the flight path next time you shoot- it may be a real eye opener.
 
Elvis
Glad you feel better :D
I have a Burris 4.5x14 Ballistic Plex on my primary deer rifle, I have tested the graduation from 100 to 300 yards, at 100 and 200 it is nuts on, but 300 it is off by 1 to 2 inches low. Point being I have tested it and practiced with it at those ranges.

Your story is very familar as I help people sight thier weapons every year at hunter sight in days. You would not believe how many times I have heard " I just bought this new scope and rifle I am going elk or deer hunting next week" No practice, no nothing but yet they think they are going to be able to pop a critter at 300 to 400 yards just because the scope marks say they can.

It has been my experience that hitting a 6 inch kill zone at 300 is difficult in a real world situation where you are in awkward positions, and have very little time to prepare for the shot. Even with a good rest, hitting your mark consistently at 300 yards can and is difficult.

LH I do not disagree with what you say about wind flags, one line in your post hit the mark dead on " an estute hunter can use various natural wind displaying elements, trees, vegetation, etc. to aid in getting the bullet to it's mark."

But this is not an art easily aquired. it takes time and practice to be able to judge the wind using these elements. Which led to my remark to practice without the wind flags and try using what is there.

I have various landmarks where I hunt that I know the actual distance to each from where my stand is, I keep the scope at a power where I have good field of view over my entire area, and when opportunity presents itself, I have a pretty good idea where it is at, and then use the natural wind indicaters in the scope to stay on target, and pop off the shot, but then again I have been shooting this way for 30 years. And where I live and hunt, wind is never non-existant.

Good Shooting
DR
 
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