restoration of some 60's rifles towards bench rest use...

M

MagnumWheelMan

Guest
new guy to the forum... not new to shooting...

1st off... I'm a newer collector, & when my father in law died, we were put in charge of managing his collection as well... so in merging the two, I've got a few interesting things to shoot...

most of his rifles were hunting rifles ( like one or more in nearly every caliber ), as well as Czech guns, he also collected Contenders... I've continued to build on things over the years...

I have my own 300 yard range, & at 1st got more into handguns, but as I've gotten older, find I hate chasing around reloadable brass, so now I shoot mostly revolvers, the Contenders, & bolt action or single shot rifles...

a couple of years ago I bought one, & built one Martini ( long lever ) rifles, one in 50-70, the other set up for safari in 45-70...

a couple of weeks ago I found a Remington Rolling Block likely converted in the early 60's to a bench rest gun, converted to 225 Winchester... It has incredible looking wood, a beaver tail fore end, & high cheek rollover stock, the action is tight, but we are tightening up the main pins some, by making new ones, the barrel is nearly shot out, & my local builder seriously questions the safety of the 225 Winchester in the #1 Blackpowder action... so, I'm restoring it as a "vintage" bench rest gun, & chambering it in 32-40, only I'm using an uncontoured Shilen 8mm match barrel with a 1 in 10 twist ( contouring it to match the 225 winchester barrel, so the fore arm fits without rework ), I plan on starting with 8 mm flat based spitzer jacketed bullets, & strtching the published OAL, but may switch to heavy 8mm cast bullets later... the 225 Winchester barrel had cheesy aluminum 3/8" dove tails & good quality 1" 22 rings... they have to go... I'm pulling off a 15X Unertl from one of my father in laws guns to put on the roller project... which brings me to the next project... restoring "that" custom 98 Mauser

so... before I get too far... I only shoot on my personal range right now, at 100, 200, & 300 yards... but if I'm building/ restoring these guns, I'd like the "ability" to compete later down the road if I wanted. I have an area, that I could shoot either 600 & up to 1200 yards, but only in the spring & fall, when the crops are out...

so... any suggestions for the "roller", & or loading my "tweaked" 32-40 ???

... the Custom 98 Mauser is a sporter weight rifle, from the 60's era with an incredible flame maple stock, & a 15X Unertl scope... it seems to have a slow twist 30-06 barrel on it, as it shoots Ok, with 150 grain bullets & lighter, but my 200 yard groups get ugly with the couple of bullet styles I tried in 180 grains...I found some of my father in law's hand loads in 30-06, with 100 grain plinkers, so I'm wondering if this was originally a prairie dog rifle in 30-06 ??? anyway Mrs. Magnum would really like it better if I left the rifle alone, but I would like to keep it "looking" like it did, but shooting like a 600 yard / 1000 yard gun... so I'm thinking a heavy barrel in a caliber that wouldn't hurt so much from an afternoon bench session, & adding a 20X Unertl & keeping the flame maple stock ( I know... it's not a bench rest style... but this is retro )... as I like tweaking with obsolete cartridges... not jumping on the newest next best bandwagon... I like to tweak them in a way, that you can still safely shoot factory ammo in them ( factory 32-40 will go down my roller safely, though likely not very accurately )... I'm thinking 284 Winchester "long" in my custom 98 Mauser... stretching the OAL to where the long slippery 7mm bullets seat only in the neck, then opening the mag lips enough that the shorter ( 284 with longer cartridge length heavy bullets ) will fit in the mag of the controlled round feed 98 action, & chambering & throating to fit the "longer" cartridge... again a factory loading will still shoot safely in the gun...

any suggestions for this rifle as an occasional use 600 / 1000 yard gun ( in keeping with how it currently looks ), or loads / recommendations for the 284 Winchester "long"

thanks for any tips you may have for this old newbie...;)

my '98 sitting on my bench...
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my roller before teardown...
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Not so tough......

Not such a tough crowd....but you're completely off subject on the short range benchrest forum. You may get much better responses on the "factory/hybrid" part of the forum.;)

Good luck,
Virg
 
This forum is a fairly dedicated short range Benchrest competition forum. The people that frequent it probably can't give you too much advice, because they don't have the answers for you. Anyhow, you would probably be better served finding a forum that deals with these kind of rifles. You may find the people on a cast bullet forum to be of more help with the first rifle. As for the 98, you can check with the 1000 yard forum here, but it is very much like this forum, only with longer range talk.
 
sorry... I guess, as I posted, I normally only shoot to 300 yards, & the "roller" will only be shot at those "shorter" distances, & likely for quite awhile only with jacketed bullets...but maybe that cartridge is obsolete with this croud ???

the Mauser will mostly be shot at 200 - 300 yards, as I can only shoot longer a few times a year...

but I do have interest in setting up the rifles as legal to shoot in appropreate classes, should I ever have the opportunity to do a few competitions for fun...

where does one go about getting class designations ??? I read the articals of the home page, & found them informative, however the links for both shooting association ??? did not work...

from this page...

http://benchrest.com/articles/articles/11/1/How-to---Competitive-group-shooting/Introduction.html

BTW... if a moderator feels this is better suited in another forum... please feel free to move it... thanks...
 
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politely as possible, none of the guns or the projects fit into 100/200/300 BENCHREST. they may fit some club benchrest( notice the caps in the prior sentence). 100/200 BENCHREST WITH AN OCCASIONAL VENTURE INTO 300 IS WHAT THIS FORUM IS ABOUT.

so check out your local clubs, the factory/hybrid forum, and the 600/1000 benchrest forum for the '06 mauser.( you can cut and past this on to those forums)

mike in co
 
MagnumWheelMan: the link to IBS is: http://www.international-benchrest.com/. It is shown correctly on the benchrest.com home page. Your Mauser, likely, could compete in the factory class in many of the various club matches held around the county. The rules for "factory class" vary from club to club. Factory class, however, is not competed officially in registered IBS or NBRSA matches.

As far as the rolling block goes, I don't believe it is legal in registered IBS or NBRSA competition. The fire control system (bolt) cannot be removed. Nevertheless, I am pretty sure you could find a home for that rifle amidst the single shot rifle guys (cast bullet or not).

Jeff Stover
 
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Thanks for the rely Mike...

so... I guess like mentioned in artical I linked... I have no clue what Bench Rest Shooting is all about... the links in the "artical" are dead, so, am I doomed to never understand ???

as mentioned, I have my own range, I shoot off "a bench", at the distances listed, I reload, & build the rifles, or could, to get the best ( smallest ) groups possible, I monitor weather conditions & am even looking at getting a weather station to suplement wind flags... did I forget my deoderant or :confused:

do I have to have a ( built by famous maker ) 6mm PPC "super duper magnum" with a $10,000.00 - 80 X scope & a hand full of factory sponsors to play??? I just want to get off the farm once in a while...

I feel like I got off on the wrong foot here...:eek:
 
Thank you for the reply JEFF...

BTW... maybe they are working on thier website, but I can't get there from here using your link either :confused:
 
Magnum - please excuse us here. The short-range BR is pretty specialized, but virtually everyone here DOES wants to help a new shooter. We are just trying to point you in the right direction given what you have. If you want to contact some benchrest shooters in Minnesota or Iowa please email me at:

jstover33@verizon.net
 
I hear you

Hey Magnumwheelman,

I appreciate your need to talk to someone about what you like. I am new to this forum and, gleaning from what I've seen on other forums, shooters of any ilk are an opiniated bunch. From what you've written, (my condolences for your loss) you have an incredible opportunity, not had by many, to have your own range. What luck !! Don't take offence to comments that come out of the blue. Deep down, we all have that same urge, the one to burn powder !! Keep at it. Your rolling block project, might I suggest an old-fashioned caliber, .45-70 Govt. I've always appreciated this caliber and its history. To enjoy your paper-punching prowesses, choose a caliber that does not throw out your sight picture through recoil. If I don't find your replies on this particular blog, I'll find it sowewhere else. Take care.

Tazzman.
 
Magnumwheelman, you might take a look at this link. The Cast Bullet Association I looked at some of the match reports from some of the clubs and there are several guys shooting falling block actions in .32-40. They are also shooting bolt action rifles, (Mauser, Springfield and other actions) in various calibers as well.

By the way, a rifle fairly similar to your single shot was how I became interested in shooting benchrest. I had a friend install a .22/30-30 Ackley barrel in a Shilen Select Match #7 contour barrel on a Falling Block Works action. The first group out of it was a 1/4" 5 shot group at 100 yards. I never could get it to repeat it. So, wound up building a .22 PPC on a sleeved Remington 700 in a McMillan benchrest stock. That rifle would repeat the 1/4" accuracy and is why I'm hooked today on shooting in benchrest competition.
 
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MagnumWheelMan said:
Thanks for the rely Mike...

so... I guess like mentioned in artical I linked... I have no clue what Bench Rest Shooting is all about... the links in the "artical" are dead, so, am I doomed to never understand ???

as mentioned, I have my own range, I shoot off "a bench", at the distances listed, I reload, & build the rifles, or could, to get the best ( smallest ) groups possible, I monitor weather conditions & am even looking at getting a weather station to suplement wind flags... did I forget my deoderant or :confused:

do I have to have a ( built by famous maker ) 6mm PPC "super duper magnum" with a $10,000.00 - 80 X scope & a hand full of factory sponsors to play??? I just want to get off the farm once in a while...

I feel like I got off on the wrong foot here...:eek:
Click to expand...

not so much the wrong foot, as much the wrong rifles for THIS forum. we all like to shoot. this forum is very narrow in aspect. for the record i am an outsider here, hopefully well known.
i shoot my stock 98 mauser's in MBABR(military bolt action bench rest)..lots of fun to shoot but not the kind of accuracy seen here.
for this forum i shoot 223br, 308 win br, and 6ppc, i shoot with 36x scopes, single shot, 5 shot groups, or score(one shot, one target). do you have wind flags along your line of sight at 100,200 yds ?
no factory sponsers in this game(event sponsors, not shooter sponsers), tho several company owners shoot guns. no magnums on this board,,,,i do not think there is anything bigger than 308 in this forum. yes you will need a competive scope from about $400 to $2500. a used 6ppc rifle can be had for under $2000. a new with latest stock, a known reciever, a known bbl maker and a known 'smith to put it all together...... a lot less than $5k....i'd guess between 3 and 4 for most.


the big surprise to most newcomers is that BENCHREST shooting is not about shooting a rifle off a bench, it is about shooting a BENCHREST rifle in BENCHREST competition, SCORE or GROUP. the ability of man and rifle to produce consistant results( five 5 or 10 shot groups, consistanly small, or 25 single shots that do not very more than a half bullet width from a dot in the middle of a target).

the desire to shoot and having a range are in your favor, but this is a very narrow game.

mike in co
 
Magnumwheelman, I don't think anyone is looking down their nose at you. I would like to help but I don't have any experience in what you are asking to give you an answer that would help. As far as 6ppc magnum 10,000 dollar stuff I can't help on that one either. I shoot 1500 to 3000 dollar plain jane 6ppc's. I must say that you have some nice looking rifles though, enjoy them!
 
thanks for the comments guys... I guess I really did get off on the wrong foot...

BTW... the association info links are still not working...

so... maybe you can answer a few ( more carefully chosen ) questions

1)...are there limits to the chosen cartridges that can compete ???

1a)...or are there either classes or are calibers like 17K Hornet, 222 Remingon, 257 Roberts, 7mm-08, .308, 338 Win Mag allowed ( I know for example, that the 338 is not "practical" but I have several Contenders in several very accurate wildcat cartridges, hence the question )... I could build a rifle around one of these cartridges that I'm already loading for, if it were practical...

2)...all rifles classes are to be bolt action ???

2a)... there are no classes for Contender "style"carbines or handguns ???

2b)... if not, are there handgun classes for like Savage Strikers, or XP-100's ???

3)... I have a local retired tool & die guy, that is a bit of a loaner, so he's not well known, but whom has been building / repairing rifles & handguns for over 40 years... he is as competent as anyone I know... if he put together an acceptable rifle, could I use it to compete ???

3a)... what exactly is an acceptable rifle / action ???

3b)... how heavy can the rifle be ???

4)... I have shot "10 shot - 1 hole groups" before at 100 yards... I imagine that is common for you guys, so how many rounds are fired at a target ???

4a)... how do you score a "1 hole group" ???

4b)... do you shoot like 10??? targets to aid in scoring ???

... sorry for all the questions, & the paitence... anyone have an info link that works, so I don't need to drag your forum down with my questions ??? I'll be building / rebuilding several rifles over the next couple years, & unlike alot of you guys, I'd like to shoot alot of different venues ( I know I'll never get to be the best at any one of them that way, but ??? ) so if I could put together a rifle to compete with, some time, it would be nice to know the "rules" before I build something to find out the caliber is not acceptable, or the gun weighs 2 ounces too much... I just like to be "different"... not looking for some unseen advantage... but lots of sports have gotten so regulated, that I won't play anymore ( the local dirt track stock cars have to use only Hoosier tires for example )... so I don't race any more... maybe bench rest is the same ??? oh well...thanks again... Magnum
 
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Magnum, you have lots of questions...that is good. One of the best pieces of advice that any of us give a new shooter is find a mentor that lives near you. You will get answers to all your questions and more. Feel free to give me a call: 570-660-6102 and I can help some and get you in touch with shooters near you. I see that you posted on the Minnetonka tread. There are a great bunch of guys out there (watch out for fellows with the last names Coots and Buettgen! :) ) - they will take care of you.

Real short answers: Caliber-get a 6PPC in a 10.5# rifle which will allow you to compete in Light Varmint (10.5#), Sporter (10.5# but caliber >.22); and Heavy Varmint (13.5#). Five shot groups are the norm except for Heavy Bench (IBS) or Unlimited (NBRSA) which are unrestricted classes and the home of "rail guns" (return to battery). Your local gunsmith might be ok, but a gunsmith used to working with the benchrest trade would get you off on the right foot. To distill the conventional wisdom:

1. Get a mentor (we can help you on that)
2. Go to a match before buying anything.
3. Buy a used rifle, assume the barrel is no good. A "pedigreed" rifle is best if you can find it (i.e. a known good shooting gun. Good-and bad-guns are sold all the time). Don't try to swim upstream and try to start with some "non-standard" system. This game has enough frustrations-you want to minimize self-inflicted problems. Experiment all you want later, but a 10.5# 6PPC with a custom action is the way to go. Trust me.
4. Of course budget is important, but get a good solid foundation for your "system". Meaning: a good action in a good stock. Again, it can be used. My best rifle ever was "used".

The NBRSA site is working: http://nbrsa.org/
The IBS site is having a server problem; we hope it will be fixed today.

Jeff
 
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