Remington w/ to deep of throats....

Rustystud

New member
I started working on a factory Remington model 7 in 308 Winchester. The chamber has a throat of 2.2605" The SAAMI spec chamber throat would be 2.146-2.175. This is the second Remington factory rifle in 6 months that I have checked with over throated barrels. Both were in 308 win. Has anybody else been seeing Remingtons with throats this deep?
Rustystud
 
Yes. This has been a long running problem with remington.
In speaking with factory personal and remington Reps, this is a non existant problem ,therefore there will be no forthcoming soulition from their end,
Of course we know better.

Chuck.
 
I started working on a factory Remington model 7 in 308 Winchester. The chamber has a throat of 2.2605" The SAAMI spec chamber throat would be 2.146-2.175. This is the second Remington factory rifle in 6 months that I have checked with over throated barrels. Both were in 308 win. Has anybody else been seeing Remingtons with throats this deep?
Rustystud

Nat, this is probably lawyer stuff. Make the throat very deep and make the chamber neck realy deep, then if the round goes off at all there will not be any pinching at the neck or jamming in the throat. There is a bunch of imported 7.62 NATO and 7.62 x 51 that is all over the place in dimensions of the brass.

I am loading some imported 308 brass labeled 7.62 x 51 *80*. I had to trim over 0.045" to bring it down to the 2.005" trim-to length. And remember there were several iterations before the 308 was standardized (T65, 7.62 NATO, etc).

The SAAMI is 2.146-2.175 for the MAX chamber??
 
Deep throated Remingtons.

The SAAMI max is designed so long short ogive bullets can be safely loaded.
The maxumim SAAMI OAL is 2.808" and the factory magazine will only allow for 2.8125". The throats I have encountered are even too long for VLD bullets being shot single shot. The Nosler, and Swift bonded hunting bullets have a good BC and are relatively short in comparison to a VLD bullet.

Another problem in my book is the loose throats. The factory Remingtons, SAKOs, and Savages come with .310-.311 OD throats. The best targets rifle chambers are .3085. The loose throats promotes for gun owners not to clean their gun. It also promotes poor bullet starts and a lot of room for high presure gasses to begin further and faster throat errosion. In my humble opinion this is just an example of poor engineering and sloppy work. I have always been a fan of Remington 700s and there derivitives. This is evidenced by the quantity that I have owned. Having been in the business of rebarreling rifles professionally for the last 5 years I have come to the conclusion there is no comparison of the factory rifle and the custom rifle. There is so much difference in the fit finish, and quality of the raw materials. The (alphabetical order) Borden, Pierce, and Stiller, custom actions fit the exact foot print of the Remington and are made to the highest standards available. You pay for the quality up front not fixing the problems encountered on a factory gun. The quality of the after market barrels is at an all time high. The other factor the quality of tooling and machining has never been any better, high quality reamers, and measuring devices and yes CNC.
Rustystud
 
Rustystud,

I guess this is the problem faced when operating under SAAMI standards, which are by agreement, not government regulation or mandate.

I can understand your concern when a manufacturer exceeds the agreed standards, but heck, .310 throat diameter is the SAAMI spec, though I agree with you that it isn't to an acceptable standard for good target work.

The most ludicrous anomoly with SAAMI standards was pointed out on another forum, where, so it seems, the minimum depth for a LR primer pocket is some thousanths less than the maximum standard for a primer cup. :eek:

John
 
John, I hold the SAAMI standards book in my hand. The large rifle primer cup height standard is 0.123" to 0.133", the large rifle primer pockets standard is 0.125" to 0.132". However, it should be noted that the primer height as measured includes the protrusion of the anvil legs past the cup by several thousandths of an inch. Once a primer is seated, the cup and anvil come together as the anvil slightly compresses the pellet; thus, even a maximum primer and a minimum pocket will come together nicely. Perhaps if someone was looking only at a table of dimensions he wouldn't see this, but the accompanying drawings make it clear. The other cup/primer standards are similar (large/small, rifle/pistol). For what its worth, in measuring thousands of primers and pockets, I have never run across such a combination of extremes.

SAAMI is often unjustly maligned in forums of accuracy shooters, but it provides an immensely valuable service. While we may not love some of the allowable dimensions (as in the .308 above) those rifles were never intended for our purposes. On the other hand, aren't we all glad that when we buy a piece of .308 brass from one manufacturer, a die from another, a shellholder from a third and a rifle action from a fourth that all the bits fit together nicely?
 
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I welcome SAAMI..

If it were not for SAAMI all cartridges would be wildcats....

SAAMI is a classic example how the free world can opperate without government intervention.

Rustystud
 
I did some measurements using the Hornady comparator on my new Rem 700 5R mil-spec/.308.

Using the Berger 155 match...

Touching the lands, the bullet is just hanging in the neck of the case and has to be seated to OAL according to the load data, and it had to be seated at 2.800".

Using a Nosler 155 BT...

With the bullet touching the lands, Case OAL is 3.00" and it looks like there's about 3/4 of the neck touching the shank of the bullet. It looks like that bullet or larger would allow for normal load development, but if i want to shoot the smaller Bergers or Lapuas, I'm restricted to one seating depth.

The measurement from the bottom of the case to the lands is 2.450". That seems like out of this world long..

This is a new rifle and I havn't fired it yet. I just got everything to load for it and I'll go to the range after lunch and break it in. I have loads made up using graduated weights of two different powders to shoot after the initial break in. I wish I had a warm fuzzy feeling that this rifle was going to shoot, but I just don't feel good about it, and judging from the posts on here talking about Remington's attitude about long throats, I don't think I can count on much help from them. What am I looking at to have the barrel set back and rechambered?
 
Kimber, before you set the barrel back, try other (longer) bullets. I have an early 1980's Remington 700 VS here that has never been fired, it was a custom project at the time and then sat in a safe forever. This thread has me interested in playing with it today. I'm going to see how some of the longer bullets seat in it. Sierra 190's and Western 197 (pulled from WCC 60 match ammo) will be my first approach. I think they'll seat well and they should be fine with 4064. We have a 1000 yard match tomorrow so I won't get to shoot it until Saturday, but I'll report back on it.
 
Very similar to what I've observed. Everythng I tried was unable to seat properly if it was going to touch the lands. I suppose the longer bullets would probably seat properly, but who wants to be limited to two options, that would be seating the shorter bullets to specified OAL and trying to find a load just varying the weight of different powders or just being limited to one bullet just because it's long enough.
I took mine out today to break it in. I ran 25 or so rounds using Berger 155s that I put together just for break-in. I fired 1 and cleaned, 10 times, fired 3 and cleaned twice, and fired 5.. They were seated to recommended length. During the break-in, there was the occasional two in one hole, but the overall results were much less than impressive, I'm sure at least partly because of the 155 gr bullet having to jump 1/4" to get to the lands.
I'm just wondering why Remington went sloppy on this rifle and not the other calibers. My two other 700s, a .223 and a .243 both shoot well and don't seem to have this throat issue..
This brings me back to my original thought of having the barrel set back and rechambered. i know it doesn't make sense to try to fix an old barrel with the cost of a new barrel being what it is, but this is a brand new barrel with a lot of life left in it.I'll probably burn up the coast of having a smith set it back just in bullets and powder just trying to find something that will shoot in this gun. Not to mention the hours loading rounds and going back and forth to the range to test them. I loaded 100 rounds in new lapua brass that needs to be fire formed, so I'll shoot that ayway and see what happenes. I also think I'll run a box of factory ammo through it just to see what it does when I eliminate the human factor(me) Wow..<slapping forehead> I could have had a Savage..
 
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"I could have had a Savage"

Now your thinking.

My friend has one of these super long throated 308 Remmys. He's been stubbornly trying for five years to make it shoot. So far his best loads hover just above 1moa.
I just recently bedded it for him and saw no immediate improvement. Oh well.
His best results have been with 180gn Sierra flat base huntin bullets. Not sure of the exact nomenclature for them. I do not shoot Sierras.

FWIW Hornady A-Max have extra long shanks which should help in reaching the lands in these guns. They're cheap and shoot pretty darn well also.
Someday my stubborn friend will finally heed my advice and get around to trying them. Even the 208gn A-Max stuffed way in shoots pretty good out of a 308 at close range. I doubt they will make a long range option.

Four Savage actions, Six stocks and Fifteen barrels. He can keep his Remy.
 
I can't imagine how much he's spent on reloading components over 5 years and still doesn't have a gun he's happy with. I think my smith charges $75 to set the barrel back and rethroat it so compared to your friends ammo bill and the excercise in futility, that seems like a bargain to me... He's a BR rifle smith so I'm Ok with that. I'm going to shoot up what I have loaded and call it load development because the brass needs to be fire-formed anyway, then I think I'll give him a call. I'm just sorry I didn't research this further before I bought it, but with my other 700s shooting good, there was no reason to think this one wouldn't also. I'm wondering if Remington would do anything about it if the throat was cut 1/4" too long. Even they can't believe that's acceptable..
 
Your absolutely right. $75 is a deal compared to the money my buddy has thrown down that tube. He says its not in his budget to fix it. I did say he was stubborn didn't I. At this point with his round count I would not suggest it.

I also do not believe its all the throats fault. One day I fired some loads from my gun in it. N-140 and155's seated real short for my Palma chamber. Never measured that group but it was roughly around 1.00 at 200yds. Not bad considering the huge differences between our two guns.
He's still not firmly convinced all the specifics I go through to reload accurate ammo is necessary either. Good luck with yours.
 
German Salazar,
I can see from the numbers you have developed that
the long throat is nearly the same as mine. My normal shooting
would probably not exceed 400 , and had wanted to shoot
155 and possibly 168 SMK. Flat base bullets of similiar weights shoot
much better from this 700 VS. The boattails always slightly tipped
at the paper. I suspect, but don't know, that it is caused by a large
throat dia and minimum amount of bullet in the neck. All that allowing
major runout that can't be controled in loading, and adding to inbore yaw.
Your numbers do show a throat for everyone, considering all
the bullets and factory loadings possible. Maybe it is an issue for
we paper punchers, but not for BIG GREEN.
I asked Mike Walker , newly retired from Remington, why the
gas port on a Rem 700 was on the passenger side and the gas port
in the bolt on the opposite side. He said that he designed the action
to have the gas port on the same side as gas port in the bolt. The Sales
department said no, because they wanted the port in the action
visible in the centerfold photo, and that to be on the same side as the
bolt handle. Sooo it was changed. The sales people and legal
people all get a say. As such--Non existant problem
 
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