Reloading Question, things gone bad and can't find a reason

B

BenKeith

Guest
What will make pressure all of a sudden jump way to high for no apparent reason?.

The rifle is a Tikka T3 Varmint, 22-250.
The load is 36.6 grains of Varget, WW Brass that has been reck sized and it's 1.908", BR2 primers, Nosler 50 gr Ballistic Tips seated barely touching the lands. This load averages 3,700 fps
For about a month now this has been my most accurate load, averageing five shot groups of 1" - 1 1/4" at 400 yards and shooting single hole groups at 100 yards. I've shot about 175 of these loads with the only pressure signs is a mild flatning of the primper.

I have shot loaded as high as 40.1 grains of Varget with this load but was flating the primers pretty good and was giving a slightly harder bolt lift with a few of them, plus a lot higher velocity than I really wanted.

This past weekend, for some reason the pressures went crazy. I ruined seven pieces of brass from excessive base expansion, and actually blew the primers out of three.

I was trying different seating depths. I started at .015" off the lands and was going to work up to .005" pushed into the lands. For some reason, the five that were .005" off the lands all ruined the brass from too much pressure and blew the primer out of one. I tried two of the ones seated against the lands and both blew the primers.

I've double checked the seating depth, pulled the bullets and checked the load, the case length and everything else of the three remaining and everything shows to be the same as I've been shooting for over a month with no pressure problems.

The rifle is cleaned very well after every trip from the range with Bore Tech C4 Carbon Remover and Sweets 7.62 Copper remover. Never letting the Sweets stay in the barrel for more than a minute. I clean for one minute with Sweets, dry it, run some C4 through it and then do the Sweets again. I do this until the blue is gone. I use a Lucas guide and Dew's one piece rods.

I've been reloading 45 years and never run into this
 
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Is there any chance you may have mixed powders by mistake? Does anyone else use your reloading equipment? It sounds like a powder mixup somehow.

Gene Beggs
 
No one but me loads, with it. The only two powders I've used lately are the Varget and Reloader 17. I also thought of that, but thought it would be highly unlikely since I always empty the power dumper back in the can as soon as I finish. However, just to be sure, I've mic'd the size of the granuals in the cases against what's in the containers. The R-17 is .038" and the Varget is .033", what's in the case is .033".

I also double checked my load with a second set of scales. The ones I used showed 36.6 grains and the second set of jewelers scales showed 36.63 grains.
 
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When you are dealing with substantial loads, and on Quickload your 36.6 grain load the CALCULATED pressure is 60,000, pretty high for a factory rifle. Your 40 grain load of Varget calculates to be is near 70,000PSI. At those pressure levels any change at all, different lot of bullets, different lot of powder, different powder can get radical.

Plus, starting off the lands with a high pressure load, you are going the wrong way when considering safety. If you are shooting a chambering that will allow the bullet to go into the rifleing, start there, then build up the powder and/or moving back.
 
If you are seating your bullets into the doughnut, pressure can rise. Have you opened a new container of powder recently? Reloader powders have a spike that I do not care for. Makes
great fertilizer for the garden.

I have found 38 grains of H-380 and a Mag primer hard to beat in a 22-250. Mag primer is to light-off the ball powder.

GW
 
First, let me say I did not start off seating against the lands. All initial test loads were .020" off the lands. I found 36.9 grains for give me the best accuracy at .020" off the lands. I then worked it up to being seated against the lands and it was extremely accurate, but the pressure signs were apparent, primer very flat and the occassional hard bolt lift. I backed that load down to 36.6 grains and it was still extemely accurate but without the heavy flatning of the primer and no hard bolt lifts. Since I had not tried any other seating depths with the 36.6 grains, I was just going to see how they did. In the past, anything off the lands opened the groups significantly and I was just going to verify that with this load.

Bullets are only half way down into the neck. All case necks are turned and inside the necks polished with 0000 steel wool, only using a slight interference to seat the bullets.

I was not shooting the Reloader powder, this is the Hodgon Varget. However, I have tried the R17 in this 22-250 and it shot very well and is the best powder I've found for the 243 and 260.

I have not tried 380 but did try the H-414 and it didn't like that a all. 414 gave me the worst results of all the powders I've tried so that turned me away from trying 380.

This is a recently opened can of powder, but I have shot about 50 loads out of it prior to this, and it's the same lot number as the previous container and the same as the other thee I have. When it was working so well, I bought five pounds. I've used one and on my second. I made sure they were all the same lot number, just to avoid the problems with different lot numbers.
 
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CCI 200's and CCI BR2's
Are the 200's suppose to be a hotter primer than the BR2's? I have always been under the impression the BR2's were the same approx burn rate, just much more uniform because the maintained higher quality control over the thickness of the propellant.

The reason for this question, I just noticed these 22-250 loads do not have the B on the primers. I was loading some 6mm's that I use 200 primers in and I guess I forgot and that's what was in holder on my primer punch and loaded the 22-250's with 200 primers instead of BR2's. That has been the only difference I've been able to come up with, but I'm wondering if I'm grasping at straws, thinking the 200 primer instead of the BR2's could cause it.
 
Changing primers can definitely cause this. Furthermore it's faulty logic to assume that a touted "hotter" or "cooler" primer will be.

Changing powder temperature will also do this. Generally the warmer the powder charge the higher the yield.

On this note I generally test reloads by basing them at room temperature and shooting 3-5rds that have been frozen overnight and 3-5rds that have been brought up to 100F or so by soaking them for 3 or more hours in front of a heater. NEVER with a max load! I commonly find spreads more than 100fps.

al
 
Gary Walters said:
I have found 38 grains of H-380 and a Mag primer hard to beat in a 22-250. Mag primer is to light-off the ball powder.

GW
Click to expand...

Good advise Gary. After Hercules (now Alliant) quit making Rl-11, which was THE powder for the 22-250 Varminter, then 38 grains of H380 became THE 22-250 powder. Matter of fact that's how H380 got its name (38 grains for the Varminter).
 
After finding the primers were not the BR2's, I've searched the web and so far, everything I can find places the BR2's on step above the 200's on the heat range. If the rain will let me, I'm gonna find out this weekend. I'm going to take these three bullets left with the 200 primers and some identical loads with the BR2's and see if there are different pressure signs.

I also know the warmer the powder the hotter it will burn. The problem with that is, it was in the 80's when I first started shooting this load and it was 31 degrees the morning I was having this problem. The weekend before it was 28 degrees and I had no problems.

Don't get my replies wrong, I appreciate all the input and trying to help. I'm just hopping someone will come up with something I have not tried. Like I said, I've been doing this a long time and this is the first time I've had anything like this and other than the different primers I've found, it doesn't make since, and according to what I've been able to find, the 200 primers are suppose to be milder, gonna find out though
 
Probably not but what about temperature?? If anything that would make less pressure==since lately we seem to have less temp. Dont tell Algore-just send him your $$$$ !!
 
I have seen other have this problem before, in 22/250, and it turned out to be a carbon problem. Are you just using patchs, nylon brush, or are you using a bronze brush? Try scrubbing the barrel out with JB, and see if the problem doesn't go away.
 
BK How many total rounds down that T3. got a rough throate? Tikka Barrels are Copper Mines, What Bullet, What Case?

Clarence
 
IF it's carbon I'll opine that it would be buildup in the neck/throat causing constriction at the end of the neck.

This has been termed "the carbon ring" and in my opinion it's the only way carbon can affect pressure, by physically constricting or binding, actually SQUEEZING the neck of the case down onto the bullet.

I do not believe that bore condition affects pressure noticeably other wise.

opinionsby





al
 
This rifle has about 250 rounds through it. No, it's not carbon. If anything, it might be too clean. I clean it with a number of patches on a jag and C4 until they start looking clean, then I use the Sweets to get the copper and a few more C4 patches to get all the Sweets out. When things look clean, I make a few passes with a bronze brush and run another patch. If I get black on the patch, after the brush, I clean it more with C4. C4 does a pretty good job at dissolving the carbon, rather just floating it like many other bore cleaners. I get minimal copper fouling with this barrel. Also, it had just had JB's used in it. Because I had this many rounds through it, the last time I shot it, I used some JB's to make sure the throat was clean. My last couple of passes through the barrel is with a patch of Butch's Bore shine, since it cleans both, just to be sure it's clean, then a coat of oil. Using one of those cheap, $50 bore scopes from Cabela's, the barrel looks perfectly good.

I was hopeing to try it again this weekend, but we've had too much rain.
 
It it is around the freezing mark, the metal of the chamber may constrict compared to dimension at the 81 deg temp you were shooting in when everything was fine... it doesn't need to constrict much to affect pressure.
 
On a different track

Since the above esteemed talent has already hit more than I can think of in the way of direct answers and has dealt with the powder and primer issues: Let's think about resizing those cases? In my epxerience when dealing with high pressure loads, the amount of headspace setback with a full length resizer must be kept to an absolute minimum. Is it possible that your cases just got their first "bump" and it was perhaps more than should have been?

My 2 cents, hope it helps.
 
I haven't seen neck clearance addressed- have you made the measurements?

Good luck!
 
Well, just got back from the range, and think I've found the problem, and not real happy with the cause. Seems there is a big difference between this container of powder from the first two I've used.
After the first pound of Varget, I decided I was going to stick with it so I bought five one pound containers of all the same lot/batch numbers in an effort to eliminate the problems you sometimes have between different batch's. Well, it looks like that plan backfired on me.

I started from scratch, loading new, unfired brass. I loaded two different bullets, 52 grain Sierra HPBT's and 50 grain Nosler Ballistic tips. I backed down to 36 grains of Varget with each and used BR2 primers for the first sets and then 36.6 grains for the second sets. I seated bullets for each set of bullets to jump .020", .010" and then touching the lands.

I set the Chrony up so I could check velocities on each load. My normal load of 36.6 grains of Varget and 50 grain Noslers were always in the 3,790 - 3,800 fps. I didn't have a records on the velocities for the 52 gr Sierra's.

The first loads I shot were the 52 gr Sierra's with 36.0 gr of Varget, since they didn't cause a problem last week. They were 3,700 fps average with not pressure signs.
Next were the 52 gr Sierra's with 36.6 gr of Varget. The were 3790 fps with slight flatning of primers.
Next was the 50 gr Noslers with 36.0 gr of Varget. The .020" jumps were 4,070 fps with flattend primers. The .010" were 4,054 fps with very flat primes and small craters. I decided not the shoot the one against the lands
Next was the 50 gr Noslers with 36.6 gr (was my normal load). The .020" jump were 4050 fps, flatnend primer with small crater and bolt face mark on base of brass. I didn't shoot the rest.

I have a 300 fps increase in this load with this recently opened container of powder and this is the second container I've opened from the same batch/lot number. This kinda pisses me off. The reason for buying so much powder at once was to keep this from happening. Since this was enough powder to last me several years for this rifle, I've got to dump it all into one container, blend it all together and start off all over buiding my load. That or switch over the to 52 grain Sierra bullets, since they are not giving me the problems and they do shoot very well in it.

Even the 36 grains of Varget is showing to hot for the 50 grain Noslers right now.

Well, I need to make a correction. The 52 grain Sierra's were having more pressure problems than they were showing in the primers. I just got through mic'ing the the bases on all that new, unfired brass I used to load with. I should have taken the mic with me. It's mic'ing as much as .002" - .003" larger than it did before I shot it. With what I ruined last weekend and that from this weekend, that's about 50 pieces of brass that's only good for scrap metal now. That's a lot of work down the tubes because all this brass has been fully prep'd and matched as if it was going to be used for benchrest.
 
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