relationship to chamber size and fired brass ?

M

mike in co

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i recently finished reamed a mil spec 03a3 bbl. things went well..i think.
bolt closed on a go, would not close on a no-go.
for the fun of it i measured a fired commercial case from the new chamber.( rp 150gr )

chamber spec is 2.0487"min/2.0587"max.( bolt face to 0.375" datum on the shoulder)

fired brass is 2.038"to the same point(stoney point gauge)..........

i'm still doing a shoot and clean, so have not tried reloading the brass yet.


so is this an issue ??? or just go shoot and have fun ?......yes commercial ammo fit.

thanks
mike
 
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Double check your measurements Mike. I find it hard to believe that the go/nogo's worked, yet the chamber is off by .016 from the mean.

Be careful of that .375 dimension on the taper. Something there seems like it is probably the problem.

As long as you're happy with the chambering and extraction, I'd say leave it alone.
 
The measurement (base to shoulder) of your fired case represents YOUR EXACT chamber size. The big question is this: What is the same measurement on your handloads? The difference of those measurements equals the EXACT headspace of your particular chamber.

- Innovative
 
The measurement (base to shoulder) of your fired case represents YOUR EXACT chamber size. The big question is this: What is the same measurement on your handloads? The difference of those measurements equals the EXACT headspace of your particular chamber.

- Innovative
no, that would be headspace CLEARANCE( or lack there of).

and for the record i can easily chamber rounds that measure 3-4 thou longer. there is some pressure on the bolt, but it is not being forced close, just light snug.


my real question is in a bolt gun, once fired and a few seconds have past, the case releases from the chamber wall, does its lenght change ..much ??

mike
 
Double check your measurements Mike. I find it hard to believe that the go/nogo's worked, yet the chamber is off by .016 from the mean.

Be careful of that .375 dimension on the taper. Something there seems like it is probably the problem.

As long as you're happy with the chambering and extraction, I'd say leave it alone.


chambering went so well, i returned the rented tools
i think monday , i'll call them and have them measure thier tools....

mike in co
 
Checking your measurements is a good idea. When your cases are fireformed, they of course expand to fit the chamber. After that, they can't shrink any measureable amount, and there's no way they can be so much smaller than the chamber you cut. I'd make a cerrosafe casting and measure that. Unlike a fired case, a cerrosafe casting definitely will shrink quite noticably after it sits for a while. (Read the directions.) The most important thing here is the headspace clearance.

I have seen excessively tight chambers that checked just fine with go/nogo gauges. The reason is that a go/nogo gauge can't check case width. (If they did, they'd never be able to verify headspace length.) I've seen excessively tight chambers that were just too narrow, and even though the go/nogo gauges fit properly - the cases actually headspaced to a zero clearance against the case wall.

- Innovative
 
If the "go" went in and the "no go" did not allow the bolt to close you have a chamber that is within specs.
What is the "before" and "after" dimensions when you measure the case with the Stoney Point gage? That will allow you to determine how much the case has to fireform the shoulder forward to fill the chamber.
I doubt if you are contacting exactly on the datum point, the .375 diameter of the shoulder when you made the measurement.
You established the chamber length with the gages and I really doubt that they were off more than .0005 or .001 from specs.
 
Mike,

If you have a set of gage balls, remove the barrel and drop one of them into the chamber and measure off that using a depth mic. That dimension combined with the receiver face to bolt face dimension, and the tenon to barrel shoulder dimension, should give you a pretty good idea where that cartridge shoulder really is.
 
commercial remington peters 150 ammo runs 2.040/2.041 to the datum.
dummy rounds i made up measure 2.043-2.045.
i can close the bolt on all of these, it does not drop closed, but requires a lite push..you can feel a little resistance.
the stoney point tool is 374 in the bore with a very slight radius....the best i can measure puts the dia of the mouth right at 0.375.

i did not take any recvr/bolt measurements so i do not have any reference points without disassembling the rifle. the first planned use of the rifle is the end of oct, so i have some time to deal with it.

thanks
mike
 
If you carefully file any crater flush with the primer, and hold the case, lengthwise, betweeen the jaws of dial or digital calipers, holding it up so that the head of the case is between your eye and a light source, what do you see? Is the primer protruding? If it is, record the length of the case including the protrusion, knock out the primer, with a punch, and remeasure the length of the case.
The difference will be the protrusion. Add to that the fact that new cases take several firings to reach their maximum datum line to head length and you may have solved your problem. That old Springfield has a heavy firing pin and the case design lends itself to the case being driven forward in the chamber. If you want to get a better Idea of what your chamber looks like, work up a load that is hot enough to leave the primer flush after firing, but is still by the book safe and then fire the same case several times while only neck sizing using something like a Lee Loader to size, so that there is no potential for distortion by dragging an expander ball back through the neck. Here is a post that I wrote on another board about a middle of the book 150 gr. '06 load in a Springfield with a new military barrel.

I was going to address this in a later post but to your point of how much pressure it takes to stretch brass to the bolt face, let me give you the following example.

"Many years ago I had a Springfield that had a newly installed Smith Corona 03A3 barrel. One day I decided to do a little experiment. I went to the range with all the necessary tools to reload 30-06 with a Lee Loader (neck sizes only, no expander), including an old Hollywood micrometer type powder measure for which I had made a setting table for AA2520. I decided to work with some 150 grain bullets that I had at the time, and noted the loads for that weight from a manual, deciding to start with a middle of the book load.

It is at this point that I should mention that the barrel interior was a bit on the rough side, but with no function problems. I think that the chamber must have been as reamed (no polishing) and it may have been that the bore was not plugged when the Parkerizing was done.

In any case, I made up some loads at home, perhaps half a dozen, and when I shot them, I noticed that the primers were slightly protruding. Curious, I reloaded and fired the brass several more times with the same load. Each time the brass came out with the primer backed a little farther out of the case. The last time, even though the brass OAL was correct, the shoulder had been moved so far back on the case that the neck was starting to be reduced in diameter at its end by the angle at the end of the neck portion of the chamber. After that, being young and impetuous, I decided to risk a full pressure load, and after that the cases came out with the primers flush and a bright line just above the case heads, denoting the presence of what is called an incipient separation. At that point I flattened the necks to prevent the reuse of the cases, and threw the cases in the trash.

This is what had happened. The Springfield has a very heavy striker assembly, and that particular one had been fitted with the heaviest spring that strong hands could manhandle onto it. The '06 has a relatively small shoulder angle, and the heavy whack from the weighty pin was driving it forward in the chamber. At that point the pressure generated by the burning powder became great enough so that it was held in the forward position, so that the only way that the head could have come back to the bolt face would have been for the brass to stretch just in front of the head, which in the case of the first firings, did not happen.

Now to your point. Middle of the book, jacketed bullet loads' pressures are not miniscule by any means, yet in this case they were insufficient to stretch the case back to the bolt face. "
 
Mike,

Above in an early post, you mentioned that a fired case measured 2.038 at the .375 datum. However, in your last post you say that a 2.042/43 dummy round will chamber with light pressure on the bolt handle.

This is why I say to keep checking these dimensions. Something is wrong. There's no way you'd close on a round that was .004 long at the shoulder. Not possible without a hammer.
 
You're right, something IS wrong. Just because the go/nogo gauges work properly does NOT mean that your chamber is good. You also need to consider chamber WIDTH. If your chamber is too narrow, that could explain the tight feeling when closing the bolt on a round. I've seen this many times when shooters assume all is well based only on go/nogo gauges. Too many custom reamers are just being made too tight (problem is often chamber diameter - not the length).

- Innovative
 
guys,
all brass measurements are with the primer remove with the exception of the new commercial r-p 150's.

brass is not steel, it does flex,and the bolt closes on the dummy and commercial that is several thou longer than the fired/unsized brass.

( if you ever look at the saami specs for 30'06 there is the potential for an interference fit between min chamber and max cartridge of almost .004)

i have used mic's for more than 40 years.....

i think. i'll measure some brass from my other 03a3........

in the cast bullet world with lite loads there is discussion of case shrinkage from possible firing pin driving the case forward into the chamber and the load not expanding the case backwards. this is a full commercial 150 load so i do not believe this is the case.
it maybe not fully formed from firing. the body/shoulder shows a nice clear crisp corner, but the shoulder/neck does not, the body has expanded back to where the web gets thicker near the rim.

body dia is .469 chamber spec is .4708......this seems close/reasonable.

maybe i should relaod this case and fire it a few more times and see what happens. it was a virgin rp case.

thanks
mike
 
guys ,
this may be "normal"...
i just measured cases from a second 03a3. this is a cmp rifle that i bought at camp perry. i have been shooting berger 175 vld's in it with a good load of powder behind it, cases have been fired several times..sharp clear body/shoulder and neck/shoulder corners.

they measure...2.042 !( un sized, no primer)

this maybe a case of if you full lenght size, when the body is narrowed, material moves forward, thus getting shoulder and neck sized and we never know it was less than min spec.

since i neck size only for these rifles, i guess i do not have an issue.

thanks
mike in co
 
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