RAW TM 1000 100 yards

H

Harry Fuller

Guest
Before Xmas I gave my TM 0082 .177 cal its first run at 100 yards. This was the sixth group shot in a slight lull from the breeze.

ctc 0.794 inches / 20.16 mm

TM0082100ydOnTarget_zpsbf313b07.jpg


JSB 8.4 gr Exacts at 880 fps / 14.45 fpe.

At a recent competition I had tried to step into line, with all the others present who shot LV, in an HV or LV shoot by shooting the then preferred Baracuda Match pellets at sub 12 fpe. It didn't work out very well in the swirling wind. Slow Motion video in some wind has shown me why. The 8.4 Exacts shoot very well from 900 fps / 15+ fpe down to as low as 675 fps / 8.5 fpe. ........... I'd be interested in others' experience. The 10.65 gr Baracudas shoot well at 15 to 17 fpe. ....... KR, Harry.
 
A recent FT event near me had a 75y target. I sighted my ev2 in at 75 before the shoot and was very surprised by how well the 8.4 did at that range. If I remember correctly they averaged less than an inch. Overall I think they are a very stable pellet, although the factory ev2 barrel would shoot spiraling 8.4s out near 50y, it preferred the 7.9s.
Dan
 
I used to use Barracuda Match in the gold and blue label tins at 700/703ft/sec, most accurate pellet ever found. I went off them in 1993 to Crossman 7.9gr running 821 ft/sec.
Swings and roundabouts, some days heavier pellets would veer off more, other days the lighter pellet would.

Never tried JSB 8.4 that low but the other week was running in a P800 at 740ft/sec in some wind at 87 yards. Got a diagonal 45 degree streak around 3" to the right. Cranking up to 795ft/sec saw no vast improvement from the rejects used weighing 7.4 to 8,8gr and 4 different sizes but didnt leave a group as large as above piccy. 3 height group spanning 21mm edge to edge. No spiralling, just a slight increasing bow the further could follow the pellet out.

Thosee particular supposed 8.4gr wouldnt group 4" at 40 yards in my 9003.
 
Jonny, I'm not sure I'm reading you correctly.

Jonnyh said:
..."rejects used weighing 7.4 to 8.8gr" ...

Are you saying, that from a new, previously unopened, tin of 8.4 gr JSB Exact pellets, you have found pellets weighing from 7.4 gr to 8.8 gr?

If this is what Jonny is conveying; out of interest, has anyone else seen 8.4 gr Exacts with anything remotely like that wt spread?
Best regards, Harry.
Click to expand...
 
I have had worse than that Exacts 7.2gr to 8.8gr in same tin with 4 different head sizes, none were larger than 4.48. I used to get 70 pellets weighing 8.25 to 8.5gr from a tin with 4 different head sizes.
Its the same with the Express aka Mosquito very very few batches measure whats stated on the tin. Have had 7.2 to 8.6gr same tin couldnt get a chrono reading within 70ft/sec.

JSB have never answered the question do 4 dies go in to same tin?
I know they sped up production in the past to meet demand, most notably 2006/7.

Its not so much the weight spread, more important is the sizing.
The way i figured it out was weighing pellets and getting no where. Take the one where i said got 70 from a tin of 500 at 8.25gr to 8.5gr, they would leave 4 height groups spanning at least 60mm at 55 yards - disgusting. Size the skirts 4.5 and get a two shot group around 13mm apart, still terrible.
Same rifle using some JSB Exact and Express pellets sent to one of their sponsored shooters didnt leave a .22 size hole straight out the tin at 55 yards. What hope has anyone got of doing anything competitive.

Heres a tip, if you are getting reasonable groups and one drops or veers off, its a sizing issue.

The last 4 years i have had to size the skirts to get any form of group, never tried anything other than 4.5 heads are not touched.
What annoys me is i had one good sleeve back in 2003, awesome. Buying sleeves up for years, some no joke couldnt group 8" at 40 yards and supposedly same pellet. Its down to the individual batch whether they are any good or not and not down to the stated size as assumed.
JSB know when they have a good batch.

I have about 600 pellets left which are mediocre when sized, come end of February i will be back to square one.
 
Interesting

Could you take a pic of the bottom of that tin clearly showing the numbers printed there which identify the machine, die, operator, QC inspector and year of manufacture; and one of the lid please.
Also a clear pic of 4 nominally 8.4 gr pellets from that tin, that you have weighed as spanning from lightest to heaviest weight, side by side standing on their skirts against the edge of a ruler. ...

I'll be away for a while, but on return will look for your pics and endeavor to get some further explanation. Thanks for your reply Jonny. ... Kind regards, Harry in OZ.
 
My close up picture taking is far from good, usually comes out blurred.
Should have 8 tins from a sleeve left but can only find one tin. See what i can do but fail to see what use this is going to be.
 
"H" Harry, it’s all to do with the manufactures, just like Rimfire, they are not into the attempt of perfection like all of us, just monitory retribution for mass produced quality, not for as close to perfection as possible.
Team shooters are getting the pick of the ammo and barrels it makes it hard to compete on a budget.
My dad was a competitive target shooter with Rifles and more so Pistols. He shot 22cal free pistol at national, Olympic class. I remember he would have a pallet or more at a time Light blue and white boxes of ICI Subsonic pistol match comp ammo, thousands and thousands of rounds of ammo and 44gal drums of empty cases, he used that much of it in practise and competition.
I found two boxes that had to be 40 years old and tried them in my Winchester 52D's and it was amazing one hole groups at 50m the only ammo I have used that came close was the Fed UM1 that was here for some of the 2000 Olympic teams that I got my hands on.
The old ICI pistol match shot unbelievable in my Winchester52's, Brno M1 and Garry's Red Brno BR, that You used. The Old sub sonic ammo of Dads shot one hole groups in my Winchester and Garry's.
The Point I make is that the precision and quality and speed were more consistent. They, the manufactures, should be able with the aid of robotics, lasers, modern machinery and measuring to have perfect rounds or and more-so perfect pellets. Volumes, costs and their monetary return control the manufactories desire. The private or small manufactures of high tolerance and components for production for competition of 22cal rim ammo is the only way to achieve this quality. Everything else is custom made and of high tolerance and quality, except for the AMO so we are all at the mercy of the manufactories quality and tolerances. National and Olympic shooting bodies need to lobby for better quality and tolerances and that ammo to be available to all not just a select few.
 
Phill Smyth said:
"H" Harry, it’s all to do with the manufactures, just like Rimfire, they are not into the attempt of perfection like all of us, just monitory retribution for mass produced quality, not for as close to perfection as possible.
Team shooters are getting the pick of the ammo and barrels it makes it hard to compete on a budget.
My dad was a competitive target shooter with Rifles and more so Pistols. He shot 22cal free pistol at national, Olympic class. I remember he would have a pallet or more at a time Light blue and white boxes of ICI Subsonic pistol match comp ammo, thousands and thousands of rounds of ammo and 44gal drums of empty cases, he used that much of it in practise and competition.
I found two boxes that had to be 40 years old and tried them in my Winchester 52D's and it was amazing one hole groups at 50m the only ammo I have used that came close was the Fed UM1 that was here for some of the 2000 Olympic teams that I got my hands on.
The old ICI pistol match shot unbelievable in my Winchester52's, Brno M1 and Garry's Red Brno BR, that You used. The Old sub sonic ammo of Dads shot one hole groups in my Winchester and Garry's.
The Point I make is that the precision and quality and speed were more consistent. They, the manufactures, should be able with the aid of robotics, lasers, modern machinery and measuring to have perfect rounds or and more-so perfect pellets. Volumes, costs and their monetary return control the manufactories desire. The private or small manufactures of high tolerance and components for production for competition of 22cal rim ammo is the only way to achieve this quality. Everything else is custom made and of high tolerance and quality, except for the AMO so we are all at the mercy of the manufactories quality and tolerances. National and Olympic shooting bodies need to lobby for better quality and tolerances and that ammo to be available to all not just a select few.
Click to expand...

Phill

I agree with your thoughts here wholehaeartedly.

I have come to the conclusion that the weakest link in the perfect bench rest chain (other than the shooter ofcourse) is the pellets. With air rifles that only give a variation of 2 or 3ft/s over 30 shots or so, highgrade barrels and obviously high mag scopes and solid bench rests, what could go wrong?

I am having to put wanted ad's up for pellets that were made in batches three or four years ago because the consistency at the moment is not good. Somehow we need to find a way of putting pressure on pellet manufactures to up their game.

Tony
 
I think it's been mentioned before, but It does seem a shame JSB etc don't offer batch testing the same way Eley, RWS and Lapua do in rimfire. I guess the difference is JSB sell their pellets to other companies and may not have sufficient quantity on hand to make a selection from.

As you know Tony I'm just an amateur at all this pellet selection/preparation stuff, but I just received a sleeve of AA Field this morning - 29.5.2012, 4.52, S1 00. Obviously I haven't had time to try them yet but after looking at several under a 10x loupe, they appear very well made, in fact better than any other of the AA Fields I have. Of course that doesn't mean to say they'll shoot any good.

Like rimfire, the ammunition and the barrel are the key to an accurate rifle. Finding the right combination seems to be the trick.

Brian
 
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Jonnyh said:
My close up picture taking is far from good, usually comes out blurred.
Should have 8 tins from a sleeve left but can only find one tin. See what i can do but fail to see what use this is going to be.
Click to expand...

Jonny just do the best you can and we'll see what comes of it. You wrote that you have recently been shooting them mixed to tiny long range groups so they must be close by.
In answer to a previous question; all pellets in a tin come from one die and one machine and the die and machine are identified by numbers along with the operator and QC inspector. You take the pics (or have them taken ) as I suggested and leave the leg work to me.

This post has been read by 392 shooters many of whom shoot these pellets. No one else has responded that they have found similarly amazing variance in these pellets' weights 7.4 to 8.8 gr from a new tin so we can't ask others to take the pics. There cannot be such a difference without at least an equal shape and length difference as one would find between the RS, Express and 8.4 gr normals. ... If a whole sleeve of ten tins of pellets had a mix of these it is a catastrophe.

When you present the photo evidence from one tin with the pics of numbers, tin and pellets as I invited, I will do my best to find an answer. ... Otherwise we'll just move on. Blurred pics are of no use ... Kind regards, Harry in OZ.
 
Harry,

A bit of speculation that does explain what Jon Harris may be seeing.

What if a tin has pellets from several dies and several rolls of lead? This would explain that level of variability. Then again, if shooters are shooting 24Xs, then the pellets either cannot be that bad or these shooters have found better methods of sorting out the "rogue" pellets. Your thoughts?
 
sgeorge said:
Harry,

A bit of speculation that does explain what Jon Harris may be seeing.

What if a tin has pellets from several dies and several rolls of lead? This would explain that level of variability. Then again, if shooters are shooting 24Xs, then the pellets either cannot be that bad or these shooters have found better methods of sorting out the "rogue" pellets. Your thoughts?
Click to expand...

If all the pellets have the same geometry then the lead would have to vary 19% in weight to make a 7.4 gr pellet into an 8.8 gr pellet. JSB dome head pellets are as close as it gets to being pure lead. That is one of their best attributes. Lead doesn't vary 19% in wt.

I'll wait to see Jon's pics before seeking an explanation from Pavel and Josef. Later Jon may have to provide a tin of these pellets for factory scrutiny and analysis. ... Jon indicated he has a whole sleeve of these pellets and if they are so bad then I'm sure it will be worth his while to follow it up.
Kind regards, Harry.
 
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