Question on Handloading Accuracy

1

123xyz

Guest
I am somewhat new to the handloading-for-accuracy game. In browsing the internet, I came across a statement that is rather intriguing to me. I would like to have your evaluation of the following statement:

"What I've found with all my guns is that once I find a velocity that is most accurate with a given bullet, I can change powders and primers and brass and as long as I can work back to that velocity, accuracy and point-of-impact will remain the same."

The author of this quote was referring mainly to his rifles and silhouette pistols.
 
A hundred people have read your post without a response, so I'll take a stab.

What the guy is working to is a vibration node. It's a real thing, barrels vibrate, and when you get to the "sweat" spot, or neutral node, groups are better.

Now it's a big claim to make that any powder, primer, case will group the same if he hits the same velocity. Lots of variables come into play. Getting to that same vibration node will get close to where he wants to be, but I doubt it will always be the same. Powders burn very differently, case volumes are different. Vibrations will be different.

If one wanted to build a database on all different component variations to achieve the exact same velocity, go for it.
 
There is some truth to the article...I think the arthor meant...that with all the suitable powders for a given cartridge...when one hits the accuracy (velocity) nodes it will shoot well...for instance the .308 win..using Varget, H4895, 4064,3031...etc...will produce some great accuracy...just check out the different powders that are used with any given cartridge used in long range competition...many hit an accuracy node at about 2950-3000 fps..and the list goes on based on the bullet/cartridge combination...

Eddie in Texas
 
"What I've found with all my guns is that once I find a velocity that is most accurate with a given bullet, I can change powders and primers and brass and as long as I can work back to that velocity, accuracy and point-of-impact will remain the same."

Forget you ever read this nonsense and disregard anything else this author ever wrote. It is an over-generalization of mediocrity (Pie plate mentality).
Joel
 
123xyz,
I'm sorry for my abruptness to your question,it was misdirected to the author of that quote and not to you.My response was not very helpfull.Sometimes we forget that new guys to this forum are looking for a better understanding of all things accuracy so we slam a door shut on bad information without opening a passage to anything productive.
Wayne and Eddie make good points in regard to sweet spots and accuracy nodes,both these guys know their stuff.
If one were to take one good rifle( say a 22-.250) and one bullet( say a sierra 55gr spbt) and one primer( say a fed 210) and one powder( say H4895)and one box of brass( say 50 pcs of Norma) and he was to work up great load with these components over a good chronograph with good wind flags on a solid bench,he would be a happy guy for a while.Sooner or later his lot of powder( or bullets,or primer or brass) would run out. He would go to to his supplier and buy a pound of a different lot of the same brand of powder.His load very well might not shoot as good as it did. So break out the chrono and realize that he was 80fps slower,so up the powder charge to achieve the old velocity and maybe it fixes it,maybe it dosn't ? No guarantees ! Same with lots of bullets,primers and brass.You change anything and you better put it on paper to see what it groups like and where the point of impact is, regardless of similar velocity. Now change to a completely different powder( like IMR 4064) and you have really created a different animal that may not like the velocity of the h4895 load. You may get lucky but it would be just that, luck, not precision handloading. Most BR shooters in the know will have large quantities of the same lot of components to minimize the variables.
Guys that shoot different powders from time to time will usually have different seating depth/ neck tension set-ups for the different powders.While the accurate velocity of a 6ppc bench gun may or may not be, say 3250fps with three different powders,chances are that those similar velocities were achieved with three different set ups of different components.So, velocity alone is not the predetermination of accuracy.
I hope my explanation helps in regard to your question.
Joel
 
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Nader did the correct thing on his corrected post. I believe the author was relateing to a different type of shooting . Pistol and silhoutte shooting are entirely different, You will see Benchrest is way different "" The accuracy we are looking for is measured in thousandths of an inch. Teen aggs for twenty five shots is what we are striving for at times. The other types of shooting are a bit more course. Each year more and more of the other shooting sports are using our information , on handloading and are improving their sports quite a bit. Bullet development, neck turning and other Techniques we use on a regualar basis are being used . Some examples are long range shooting and certain types of pistol shooting.
 
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Well if I were 123xyz I would really be confused! Nader,eddie and wayne talk about "nodes" of velocity, and vibration "nodes", and velocities that are "different" even though they have the same number or value, and bullets that know what powder they got their velocity from, and velocity "sweet spots", and just a lot of strange "velocities".
I always figured a bullet flying along at a certain velocity didn't really "know" how it got that velocity, or if it was flying in a node, or a sweet spot, or whatever. You are giving 123xyz a lot of strange stuff here. I see one of you made reference to "nonsense" - maybe that pretty much sums it up.
 
Joel, every once and a while Cec wanders off the porch and into town until one of the nice young men in the white coats promises to bring him back and give him a pudding cup, he should be fine for a while.
 
To explain:
When speaking of barrel vibration a node is a crossover point where the amplituide of the wave form the particular order of harmonics that is being considered is zero. (I think) When one taps (sometimes referred to as ringing a barrel) on the barrel (free floated or hanging) the nodes sound "dead" when compared with taps on other locations on the barrel.

When node is used in reference to velocity or volume or weight of powder (Some have observed that seating depth behaves this way as well.), it generally refers to points on a continuum that yield superior accuracy, as contrasted with the loads and/or velocities between them that tend to be less productive.

As to a bullet,s knowledge of how it achieved a particular velocity, different propellants, primers, and seating depths, that yield similar velocities may not have the bullets exiting the barrel in the same part of the barrel's vibration, I think that this is due to the differences in the pressure curves that different combinations produce, and that barrel vibration is probably somewhat independent of these factors.

It is also true that a beginning handloader that is hammering together loads for his sporter barreled .308 With a Lee loader, and a plastic headed hammer(where I started) need not concern himself with some of the finer points of benchrest tuning, having bigger fish to fry,as it were.

One more thing, top shooters greatly benefit from engineering, BUT they don't engineer themselves into winning position. A lot of what has been found to work the best, has been discovered by good old cut and try, and the skills, from practice, and careful observation. Those who decry the anecdotal nature of most information that is passed around in Benchrest will grow old and gray waiting for this to change...unless they are prepared to commit the resources to do their own studies, and demonstrate that their conclusions produce superior results at matches.
 
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Nodes and all...

If you're handloading, not all your information comes from the shooting bench. You need a chronograph and accurate records. The data collected will allow you to calculate ES (extreme spread) and SD (standard deviation) and see at what point you've reached the maximum velocity that a load will produce. I start at load minimum and work up in 1% increments (usually .3-.4 grs) and shoot 5-shot groups while chronographing. I then graph velocity of each load in the range and graph group sizes. Group size: Usually there is 3 or 4 nodes in the load range with the graph looking like a roller coaster, but one group will usually be the smallest. Velocity: The graph curve should increase as the loads increase until (if you haven't reached a pressure indicator) the curve levels off and additional powder produces less velocity increase. ES and SD will tell you how consistent your load is (very important at longe range). The best loads I have are where I've reached the node (smallest group), maximum velocity and smallest SD and Sg >1.4 at the same point with a non-compressed load. Components do matter; different powders, different results. Seating depth matters; I make changes .003" at a time, but most are uncoated bullets jumped .015". Choose the highest BC bullet that will stabilize (At least Sg 1.0 under the most extreme conditions, preferably 1.4-2.0 under standard conditions) with your twist. Try to use a powder that will fill at least 85% of your case. Uniforming and weighing brass contributes to accuracy. Concentricity matters, from the firing pin to the muzzle, as well as from the primer to the tip of the bullet. I load to accuracy and velocity is what it is. That's my story and I'm sticking to it :) - nhk
 
One little commentary on the above...
It is easy to be seduced by BC and velocity. Just remember, in the 1-200 yard game, accuracy trumps everything. I have seen inferior BC and slower, beat higher BC and faster. Making your initial component selection based on using the best numbers (except for aggregate size) can lead one astray.
 
Numbers

One little commentary on the above...
It is easy to be seduced by BC and velocity. Just remember, in the 1-200 yard game, accuracy trumps everything. I have seen inferior BC and slower, beat higher BC and faster. Making your initial component selection based on using the best numbers (except for aggregate size) can lead one astray.

Sorry :eek: I'm in long range mode. - nhk
 
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