Primer Problem?

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I am posting this in the Gunsmithing Section due to it possibly having to do with an equipment problem. I did a search to see if I could find a simular problem but couldn't find that any had.

So, has this happened to anyone else in this manner (see pics).
I am open to suggestions as I am stumped as to why this happened.
Rifle history and description – I don’t think that it is an equipment problem as of yet but you guys might see or have experience that will mean otherwise:
Surgeon Action, Bedded into McMillian A-5 – Chambered in 6.5x284 (Tight Neck) – Lapua Brass (turned .001 under Chamber Dim.) – 142 Moly Coated Sierra HPBTMK – Seated At the Lands – 53.0 Gr. H4831SC – Jewell trigger – 27” 1:8 Bartlein Barrel – Nightforce 8x32
I installed this barrel about a year ago and it has shot excellent until recently but has started shooting better last couple of outings. I was shooting Federal 215M primers but didn’t want my supply to get too low so I tried the Remington 9 ½ primers since I had read some good things about them. I had aquired about seven hundred Remington 9 ½’s about 10 years ago and thought since everyone’s primer supply hasn’t been too reliable lately, I would see if I could use some them in the 6.5x284.
Well, I loaded up ten rounds with the normal Federal 215M primers, powder & bullet that I have always used plus ten rounds with the Remington primers and went to the range. Shot the first five at 1000 yds. with no problems other than they hit about 14” higher than normal and then the primer blew on the sixth. Looked everything over and didn’t see any abnormal pressure signs or a reason for the malfunction. Shot another – no problems. Shot the eighth round and another primer blew, so I said that’s enough of that.
I’m glad I had my safety glasses on. I shot five with the Federal primers and they all shot very well with no problems so I loaded up and headed home – about a five mile drive.
I didn’t think anything bad had gone wrong until I pulled the bolt to give it a good inspection and could see the damage done by the primers. So I got my microscope out and looked at all of the rounds that had the Remington primers and the Federal primers.
This is what I found. I will post remaining pics in the following post.
Case head - Sorry, I didn't take a pic of the other one but it looked the same.
BlownPrimer07.jpg


Bolt Face
BoltFaceonSurgeonAction.jpg


Microscope view of 1st bad primer - still in the primer pocket
BlownPrimer03.jpg


Opposite Side of 1st Bad Primer
BlownPrimer02.jpg


Note that the pressure didn't go beside the primer but cut a hole though the cup only. Next Pics will show no was on primer pocket.
More pics to follow.
Thanks.
Larry
 
More pics

Primer indention - it doesn't look like it was over pressured - or does it.... I'm actually asking.
BlownPrimer04.jpg


Primer Pocket
DirtyPrimerPocket1-1.jpg


Primer after removing from primer pocket
BlownPrimer17.jpg


Different angle
*Note - both primers looked exactly the same as far as hole and very slight crack on side of primer below hole.
BlownPrimer8.jpg
 
Just a couple of more pics and then I will quit

Side of primer pocket - Both look the same - no washes on the sides.
BlownPrimer14.jpg


Inside view of the primer - shows the hole but nothing I can see as far as abnormal. Very clean burn.
BlownPrimer16.jpg


Primers - side by side.
If I was going to pic a primer from these three - solely on looks and uniformatity after looking at them under the microscope - I would have picked the Remington. All are very uniform.
Primers-Fed215M-Fed210M-Rem9copy.jpg


Another Question... Should I call Remington to check on a recall or otherwise....

Thanks.
Larry
 
rem primers

not sure if that's your only problem,but as you have discovered the hard way,tne remington primers are a little bit on the small size,diameter wise.they handle cratering fine,but i don't use them in brass that has been fired more than twice.CCI & Fed.are the largest diameter in my findings.
 
Larry,
After looking at the photo's and reading your post, I believe that changing the primers affected the pressure enough to give you less drop at 1000yds, but was that enough pressure to pop 2 primers? Possibly, but I would check the rest of those primers for cracks.

The pinhole in the primer that melted the case and boltface wasnt a quick burst of pressure, it was a slower release of cutting gases. This hole likely happened at the instant of ignition and continued until the bullet left the barrel. I would say that some of these primer cups are defective.

Even if you cut the load back to the same velocity as the Fed's, the thin spot in the cups will still be there and will likely ruin the boltface, if it hasnt already.

All of the heat and pressure trying to get out of that small hole acted like a cutting torch. I guess that is what the bore would look like with that much powder trying to go out of a .050 hole:D
 
Several years ago I had a similar problem with Federal 205 primers. Put nice erosion pits around the fireing pin on a couple of my .223 squirrel rifles. I phoned Federal and they said they got some bad brass and they were sorry. They did send me 5000 primers.

Don
 
Terry,
I did mic some of the new Remington primers and they are within .0002 width of the Federal primers that I have but I'm glad you mentioned it so I would go and check. Height wise they are .0012 shorter - don't know if that would make a difference or not.

sbindy,
Yep, I agree with your evaluation of how it happened and I will not be using them again. I don't think the bolt face is damaged as I went back out yesterday evening and fired some nice groups with the Federal 210M's and 52.5 grs. of H4831 at 1000 & 900 yds.

Gunner,
I AM going to call Remington and at least let them know that I have had a problem with their primers but I'm not going to expect them to send me any primers --- especially as hard as primers are to get nowdays.:rolleyes:

243winxb,
I don't know how I missed that thread when I did my search but thanks for posting the link. Good reading - I don't know if I would have tried the 9 1/2's if I had read the thread before hand but I'm not irritated at Remington - just myself for not looking at the bolt after the first blown primer.

I have the Labounty bolt fixture so I can fix the bolt myself if it does look like it will be giving me any problems. It's just a matter of chucking it up and turning it down then reheadspacing and/or rechambering.

A couple of months ago I was thinking about sending the bolt to Greg Tannel to have the firing pin bushed as I was going to try the 6-6.5x47 on the Surgeon Action. I know you guys have heard or experienced the problems associated with the small primers/large firing pins and Jewell triggers.

I may give him a call to see if I can kill two birds with one stone - so to speak. He may or may not be able to turn down the bolt face at the same time but I think he may be able to.

Thanks.
Larry
 
Where are you measuring the case neck diamater?? If you only have .001 over the turned case neck that may be part of the problem. The diameter needs to be .002(+/-) over a loaded case at the pressure ring if it's a flatbase bullet. I would prefer to see .002/.003 over a loaded round as described. Seems to be less headaches in the long run.
Have you compared case length and chamber length??


Mike Swartz
 
Just looking at the pictures.............

my first question is, why didn't you reduce the charge before you switched primers :eek: ?? As far as a problem, I never thought I had any problems, until I'd done some in-depth reading here(clicks and bushing bolts), and I sent a bolt to Tannel. When you look at one of his completed bolts, the firing pin hole on mine, like yours, looked huge. I don't see any real heavy signs of cratering on the primer, but there IS a slight ridge around the firing pin indentation, which is possibly a sign the F/P spring needs to be replaced, and/or the hole is just a bit generous. And, the neck clearance factor raised a red flag for me, too. I have about three more bolts I'll be sending out, soon, I was impressed w/the work, everything was as it should be, and the turn-around was great.
 
Last edited:
Mike,
Sorry for not clarifying - .001 per side. I don't like them that tight either. Too many headaches.
Yes, I have compared the chamber lengths and case lengths and keep a close eye on them as to not getting too long. Thanks for asking.
I have four 6x284's that I shoot also and all are tight necks, so I have to keep an eye on each to keep myself out of trouble. Yea, I know - I like the overbores.

Thanks.
Larry
 
Brian,
Sorry, I was typing when you posted.
I did notice the small ridge but thought nothing of it since the edges of the primer were still uniform.
I will dismantle the bolt again tomorrow and check the spring.
Since this is a Surgeon I am pretty sure that Preston uses quality springs but the action is about three years old. Just a side note - it is a Varmint Model - only eight were made.
I didn't reduce the load as I wanted to compare any varitations in the elevation at 1000 yds - but I don't think it would have made any difference - just my opinion. But yes, the correct way would have been to reduce the load.

I have seen some of Greg Tannels work and yes, it is excellent work.

Thanks.
Larry
 
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