Poor boy needs advice on Savage choices

T

Terbuck

Guest
I'm about to "graduate" from rimfire to centerfire. On a short budget (retiring) and don't even remotely want to compete with the big boys. No desire to strive for trophies at this stage of life. Just want to have fun and some small friendly success locally (100 - 300 yards). Looking at 223 Rem for a number of reasons, mostly cost driven (will handload), and am pretty well honed in on that caliber. Can't afford a custom build, so I'm looking at a stock gun (combined with a scope that adds under a thousand). Total cost about two grand. Specifically, Savage, due to its reputation for out-of-box accuracy and its trigger. Still, lots of models to choose from in this brand. Many questions come up, but here's my top three: (1) Is a single shot action, with a (supposedly) more rigid build, significantly more accurate than an action made for magazines, internal or external box? Really, does that opening at the bottom of the action cost that much in terms of accuracy under the (100-300 yard) conditions I'll be using? (2) The barrels vary from 26 to 30 inches. Any real gain in using a longer barrel? How much gain at 100-300 yards? (3) I like a thumbhole stock, and don't want to have to buy an extra stock and pay for having it bedded, just to get a thumbhole. So, what are the pros and cons of getting a Savage 12 BVTSS (the only stock thumbhole that Savage offers)? It's not a single shot action, has a 26 inch barrel, and doesn't seem to have a comb on the stock, which I've come to like with my rimfire setup because I can "plant" my cheek on it, just barely touching the comb, and be eyeball-inline with the scope. The 12 F/TR has a 30 inch barrel and a single shot action, but also a dipstick looking stock (what the devil is that apparent sheet plastic comb-looking "thing" on that stock anyway? Just a curled piece of plastic? Ugh). I can only afford to get one more rifle in this life, and want to know all the pluses and minuses. I need some wisdom here - thanks! (BTW, I won't be doing much F-class prone stuff, due to physical limitations.) And hey, where can I see the different models side by side in north central Illinois?
 
Better stop a minute. You haven't given us enough information. Don't spend any money yet.

When you say "matches," are any of these formal, registered matches? Or are they local, club matches?

Makes a big difference. For example, I don't know if that Savage thumbhole stock would meet the butt taper requirements mandated by the NBRSA/IBS rules.

Also, what kind of benchrest, score, or group. If you've been shooting rimfire, it's been score.

Finally, if it's sanctioned group shooting that's going on in your neighborhood, are you willing to come in dead last, every time, maybe even behind he guys who cross-fired or forgot to shoot a shot? Not being in the same game gets real old, real quick. Most people wouldn't enjoy that.

Go to some matches in your area. See what's going on. If they have a factory class and you already own a CF rifle, strongly consider getting a 36-power Weaver or Sightron Target scope in the $300-$400 region (you'll need one anyway), putting it on your existing CF rifle, and shoot a couple matches.
 
You may want to check out the www.savageshooters.com web site, this is a sight devoted to savage rifles, builds, and there are many over ther that are ding the same thing that you have done.

On your questions; the first one is there a diference in accuracy between a repeater and a single shot action ? From my experince I have not found any diference in accuracy. Some say that the rifle need to be ridgid to preform well, my finding is that an action only needs to be so ridgid, and anything more is overkill. The Savage repaeter action is at this point where it ridgid enough. I have also never seen any accuracy advantage between a short and a long action Savage. I can also say that there is no accuracy advantage of a target action over a standard action. The advantage to the Target actions is that you get a configuration that is easier to shot or run, when you get into the righ bolt left port, and dual port actions. With that said in the Savage line, there is no advantage of one action over another.

Your second question is there any advantage in the long barrels? I would say that you should tune the barrel length to the cartridge used. You see long range (600 and 1000 yard.) Benchrest and f class shooters using long barrels, and the main reason why they do this is so that they can re-chamber the barrel several times. In the short range benchrest you see shooters using shorter barrels, (22 inches.) and with some of this weight has a factor. If your looking at a 223 I would say a barrel around 24 inches should be about ideal.

On your last question about the thumbhole stock, I would say that for me I dont like them on a bolt action gun. They are very populare, and the rifle you have listed is a good seller for Savage. I would susjest as other have said, do some research on what is aloud, and not aloud in the type of matchs you plan on shooting. If you can look at the rifle your interested in, some of them have strange features. The "F" class stock has an unusualy wide bottom, and requires a special rear bag to fit it.

Now with that all said, you asked this question on a benchrest site, so I am assumining that you will be doing some benchrest shooting, or possible some varmint style shooting matchs. Out of the entire Savage line up I would say the best rifle to fit the bill would be the model 12LRPV in 223. This gun is very popular local matchs around here, and is a GREAT preformer. It also come in 6mmBR, and this is a supurbe cartridge for shooting at 600 yards. My second choice in the Savage line up is the 12 VLP, it is a wonderful gun, and would fit the bill as being a lower cost gun. The stock is well designed, and ride the bags well. If you into 600 yard benchrest I would look at the model 12 benchrest in 6 br, as this gun has proven its self on the 600 yard matchs around the country. I have seen many of them that are good shooters.

Hope this helps you out.
 
Terbuck said:
On a short budget (retiring) and don't even remotely want to compete with the big boys. No desire to strive for trophies at this stage of life. Just want to have fun and some small friendly success locally (100 - 300 yards). Looking at 223 Rem for a number of reasons, mostly cost driven (will handload), and am pretty well honed in on that caliber. Can't afford a custom build, so I'm looking at a stock gun (combined with a scope that adds under a thousand). Total cost about two grand. Specifically, Savage, due to its reputation for out-of-box accuracy and its trigger. Where can I see the different models side by side in north central Illinois?
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Given your desires and the extent of the conditions you've decided to shoot under, go for whatever Savage .223 suits your fancy. [In the end you're the one that's got to like it and feel comfortable with it.] Add a Weaver 36 power scope and your overall budget will not be in jeopardy. Far from it.

Any large reputable sporting goods store, or well stocked gun shop, should be able to array a line of Savage 223s on the counter for your final decision. Have fun! :)
 
Terbuck said:
Can't afford a custom build, so I'm looking at a stock gun (combined with a scope that adds under a thousand). Total cost about two grand.
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I hate to start a firestorm of people telling me I am wrong. But with 2 grand to get into centerfire BR I would not be looking at any Savage. For that kind of money or a very few bucks more you can buy a good used Custom BR rifle and a Weaver scope. Here is an example, Bat action and Weaver scope PPC for $1950 if it is not gone.

http://benchrest.com/class/index.php?a=2&b=5395

Even a past its prime 6 PPC barrel will shock the heck out of you as to how well it will shoot. i personally would prefer a 30BR but they are much less plentiful.I see a lot of used custom actioned rifles in the classifieds here for $1400- $1800. Most will be older builds with no ejector which only affects speed you can shoot not accuracy.

Dick
 
Looks like you are going to get a lot of opinions on this one, but it will give you some things to think about. I do own several Savages and like them. But, in the end, they will cost you more money and give you less satisfaction than a rifle built for accuracy. The first part of my suggestion is to get the best glass you think you can afford. For me, that would be a Nightforce benchrest model or a Luepold LCS 45X. If you want the best bang for the lowest buck, go for a Weaver 36x, which you can get for between $300-375. Don't bother with buying new, they have a lifetime warranty. You can make a cheap rifle shoot in some cases, but you can't do anything with cheap glass except be frustrated.

I'm going to guess, based on what you said, that most of your shooting will be 100-200 yds. You can easily find an older sleeved Remington for under $1000 (sometimes way under) that will do what you are looking for. They are readily available in 6PPC & 6BR as well as several other cals. My personal favorite, since you are interested in the .223 family, would be the .222. Another choice that is frequently overlooked would be the early custom benchrest rifles, Wichita and Hart to name two.
They are around at very good prices and will shoot very well.

A Savage will go bang, but it won't take you where you want to go. You can fit the above suggestions well within your $2000 budget and get something that will shoot.

Enjoy your project and retirement,
Rick
 
Terbuck,

IF.... You want a FUN precision rifle for a fair price............ Look at the "List"...
http://www.benchrest.com/shooterscorner/thelist.pdf


I have Savages too... They have their purpose, same goes with my 700's........ They all will shoot .5 MOA on average...
To have a chance to shoot sub .500 down to the >Ones/Zeros< in any consistent manner.... Either... A custom built BR rifle.. Or the same, just bought used in 6PPC or 30BR...

cale
 
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I've had several Savage Model 12/112 .223s and enjoyed them all. Still have one of the actions that has had a number of different barrels on it. My advice, as controversial as it may be on this site, is to get a good used Savage Model 12 BVSS-S or VLP in .223, put a good Weaver 36X on it along with a SAV-2 trigger and have a ball.

I believe a Savage action will, indeed, shoot with the customs but it will cost the price of a custom to do it. According to your post, this is your first venture in centerfire shooting and you have a lot to learn. Spend a year or so with with the .223 and learn how to use your equipment, hone your handloading skills, and get a basis for a decision of where you want to go. You can get a good portion of the investment in the Savage back if and when you decide to move on. The .223, which I have fired over 10,000 rounds of in the last 15 years, will never shoot competitively in pure benchrest circles. As an egg shoot, club shoot, etc. cartridge you can have a lot of fun with it. The Savage and .223 may give you the enjoyment level you are looking for. If not, they will give you a world of experience and knowledge of what to do next.

If you decide, after a time of target shooting and handloading, that you want to move into the "point-blank" benchrest game, then it's time to get the best used custom you can get. I personally say leave the sleeved actions alone as I think the modern actions are much better. The market for used Pandas, BATs, Bordens, Farleys, Nesikas, etc. is flooded with good guns that at most need a new barrel to give you seasons of enjoyment for less than $2,000. The used rigs will have a good stock, good trigger and good action that, with good care and feeding, will last a lifetime. Barrels wear out.

Good luck in your endeavor and enjoy ...
 
Terbuck, if you have any thoughts of getting into benchrest, this listing in the classifieds is about as good as it get ...

http://benchrest.com/class/index.php?a=2&b=5395

For less than $2,000 this set-up will give you as good a rig as money can buy that, at most, will need a new barrel at some point for $500 or so. Just as an example ...
 
Real important here: are you going to shoot group, or score?

For the record, I'm with going the non-Savage, used custom route crowd. (& BTW, most people on this forum know of Dave Blazzard, who built the rifle mentioned in post #10. Likely it is a fine rifle.)

I too shot a Savage .223 (older tactical model) in Factory class in score matches at our club (Rockingham, NC). It won a fair bit for me, until a a guy with a Savage Model 12 F-class in 6BR came along. Then he won -- always.

Here's the fun part. His best scores, that won everything in sight in Factory Class, would have put him dead last in the BR class. Not only dead last, but forget just Xs, he'd be a point or two below the last place BR shooter.

& with the target rifles, the only thing Savage makes in the .223 is the F/TR. Maybe you think the "target" rifles aren't better than the varmint?

& having done it, I found a .223 is a real disadvantage against the .30s in score shooting...I also shoot a .30 BR, and am in the process of building a .30 PPC. It's fun to shoot factory for a change of pace. Then after a bit, you want a real BR rifle again.
 
Having gone both ways a number of times in the interest of saving dollars I'll cast a vote squarely with the "buy a used custom" crowd. This is from someone who now owns his own lathe and mill.... I still start with a custom action for personal builds if usability and accuracy for a price is my goal. (I've recently made exceptions for pre-64 M70 and Sharps builds and _would_ exclude a classic Mauser build)

al
 
FWIW, this "poor boy" has introduced himself as just getting into centerfire. If he's the same as I was at that point, he doesn't even know what custom BR rig. Throwing him directly into the lion's den of .262 necks, turning to .0085, etc., etc., is overkill. Let him at least get his feet wet in a factory gun first.
 
When in the same situation several years ago, the guys gave me the same advice. It has been a gift that has kept on giving. I paid $1,600 with two barrels. I'm still shooting it and am still super happy.
 
ReedG said:
FWIW, this "poor boy" has introduced himself as just getting into centerfire. If he's the same as I was at that point, he doesn't even know what custom BR rig. Throwing him directly into the lion's den of .262 necks, turning to .0085, etc., etc., is overkill. Let him at least get his feet wet in a factory gun first.
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I'm with you. The man spelled out his budget, exactly what he's interested in, and what conditions he wants to shoot under. We don't have to make suggestions that uses up his budget just because it's there. I'm for saving him some money while he's introduced to BR in moderate steps. Honoring his parameters, is in my humble opinion, a better approach.

I started with a Savage model 12 VLP in 223, later modified it, then moved to a custom. Learned a lot along the way, and knew that when I finally purchased the two customs that I have [a 6PPC and a 30BR], that I had exactly what I wanted and more importantly ... why ... because of the progression that I had evolved through based on my interest and enthusiasm.
 
We, who have come so far, from our first CF rifles, tend to forget the progression that we went through to get where we are, and what a small part of the population of CF rifle shooters that we are.

If you want a savage, find a used one that has a single shot action, and a plastic stock. Shoot it for a while, while you assemble your reloading and range kit. Then, after you have learned what you like and don't like about the rifle, either fix what is wrong with it, with bolt on parts, or sell it, and get something else. If you bought it right, you won't loose much in the process, and if you decide to make a better rifle out of it, there are a lot of options. This will not put you in the winner's circle of most matches, but you will have a lot of fun, and learn a lot in the process. Even if you are able to rapidly assimilate all that you would need to know to take advantage of a more sophisticated rifle, I think that you would not appreciate what you had, without some background to put it into context.

A long time back, I took a friend to the range and let him shoot my first CF rifle, that I had done a lot of work on, carefully worked up a load for, and learned how to shoot... pretty well for what it was. He had been in the army, and so was not afraid of the rifle, and I patiently coached him through the steps needed to shoot a good group with it. After he did, his reaction was that it had not been too difficult. He had absolutely not concept of the work it had taken to get the rifle, ammo, and myself to the point where I could shoot well consistency. As it turned out, that trip to the range had been more of a lesson for me than him. Without a struggle to get there, the achievement had little meaning for him, but for me, it was another thing entirely.

These days, when I go to the range, there is almost never anyone who has wind flags out, or is tuning his rifle by loading at the range. They don't have 36X scopes, fancy rests and bags, and their trigger are measured in pounds rather than ounces, yet they enjoy their shooting as much as I do because the difference between us is not so much the equipment as where we are on our shooting journeys. Some travel fast, some slow, and some go around in circles, but as long as they are enjoying their trip, who am I to say that they should be doing it differently?
 
I take your point Boyd, but don't agree.

Somebody posts they want to shoot benchrest, and their plan is to purchase A,B,C, etc., and what do people think?

Well, to start with, I'm not going to assume the responsibility of their having fun, or even learning anything. Or if I am, I'll take them to the range & let them shoot my rifles, as you did. Been there, too.

Secondly, if their A,B,C, etc. shows they don't really know what benchrest is about today, most of us would strongly recommend that they go to a match -- preferably more than one -- and we almost invariably do that.

If this advice is rebuffed -- and that happens -- what's left is just telling the truth: this is what I (we) think. Actually, most people have done that in this thread, it just may not be clear to the original poster that they are saying, well, your choices are not the best, they will cost you in the long run, but you'll have fun and learn something.

Esp. when "learning something" about benchrest may be slowed down by equipment chocies. I still have times when I say "was that me or the gun?" after the darn thing throws shots. Is something broke, or am I just missing a condition? The less that happens, the quicker you learn.

But if someone doesn't want to take responsibility for someone's having fun and learning something, they stick to the question, which has at it's core, benchrest shooting. Occasionally, you'll see a Savage winning a long range match. Usually with a custom barrel, but for all I know, a factory Savage has won in the standard class at 1,000 yards, just like a factory Remington might have years ago.

For short range, registered matches, I don't think I've ever seen a Savage rifle win in any 10.5 pound class. Maybe in a 13.5 pound class, which essentially means score these days. And never with a factory barrel. If it has happened, it's rare.

So, a part of the original post sort of says "can a successful benchrest rifle be acquired for X amount of money?" You're right, "success" is not specified. If success is to include the capability of placing in the top 10% of the people shooting, the answer should be "yes, but not with what you propose" (or to be strictly honest, "the odds are overwhelmingly against you").
 
Charles E said:
So, a part of the original post sort of says "can a successful benchrest rifle be acquired for X amount of money?" You're right, "success" is not specified. If success is to include the capability of placing in the top 10% of the people shooting, the answer should be "yes, but not with what you propose" (or to be strictly honest, "the odds are overwhelmingly against you").
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Charles has touched on what I was trying to say earlier ( and not doing a very good job of it), They guy says (if I read him right) he has less than a grand to spend on the rifle. True, he can buy a Savage, but he won't be competitive at all and to get where he seems to want to go, he'll need another stock, trigger etc, which will put him well past his stated budget.

I mentioned a sleeved Remington. What I should have said was a used customized Remington, sleeved or not. Over the past few years I have acquired several of these sometimes as low as $300. All have shot better than my Savages even with stock, trigger etc. Maybe even better, I have yet to lose money on any of them when I sold or traded. While a used custom is clearly better, it's tough to find one and add a new barrel for under $1500. I just traded off two Remingtons that would both shoot in the .3s for the equivalent of less than half that and made $$ BTW.

Sure, he will learn a little with a Savage, but he won't get the feel of what a real benchrest rifle will do. A customized Remington with miles on it will do that and get him close enough to get an idea of where he can go. And btw- he may even win a match or two if he adds in some luck.

Rick
 
Just an observation, for what it may be worth.

Sometimes I get the feeling that the responses that evolve and sent on to the original thread initiator, are more a part of a game of One-upsmanship among the responders, than a concerted effort to understand the crux of the question being asked or the subject being covered, and then responding in kind.

Other responses go off on a tangent so quickly, and then remain there, that you wonder if anyone ever read the original thread to begin with.
 
Any of the high end Savages plus a mount and decent scope will not fit his budget of a thousand dollars. (I assumed that he was talking about the whole rifle package for a grand or less.) What I think, is that he will learn a lot by starting out as I suggested, perhaps change his mind about what he wants, and wants to spend, and then get something else. In any case, I think that experience is the best teacher. If he buys a new rifle, he will stand a bigger chance of taking a hit if he resells it. To tell someone that he can buy a sleeved Remington, that has a barrel with significant life left in it, and put a suitable scope on it, on a thousand dollar budget, seems to me to not be realistic at current prices, and if he has a good barrel put on it after he gets it, he will be over his budget on the rifle alone. I read his post. What I suggested was a learning experience that would not waste his money, and take not him out of position for a future move, if that is what he decides to do. Perhaps we need a little more arithmetic, and less pie in the sky. In any case, I hope that our little discussion, disagreement and all, will be useful to him, and wish him well with his project.
 
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