T
tingram
Guest
I debated about posting this, since I am not competitive right now. However at this moment, I would like to give a view from an outsider’s perspective. I have had many rifles and pistols built by the gentleman of whom is referred to as "the ole carney". I have paid good hard earned US dollars to own these rifles and as far as I am concerned I bought the right to say what ever I choose.
I feel there are many fine builders who post information on the forum and they are glad to answer the phone anytime anyone calls. Just Because they don’t post here under an alias or have a friend post for them, nor do they discuss in vivid detail a trip to the potty, where they had an epiphany about their next rifle. That doesn’t mean these other builders don’t contribute anything to this forum or rimfire accuracy, because they do.
Let’s just take a little mystery out of rimfire rifles; believe it or not, the three most important things to building a great rifle are (1) the barrel (2) the barrel (3) the barrel ; years ago it was the old Lilja. Now it is the Shillen that seem to have the edge. No magic… just great barrels. There is nothing wrong with free enterprise, marketing yourself or a little hype, but creating a demand on a public forum for a particular gunsmith’s services does not seem appropriate. Maybe word of mouth advertising like a good plumber gets or even a website like other gunsmiths have would be better to inform the buying public of innovations and quality. Public forum should be used for information and discussion and most of all fun not shameless self promotion. When the process of congratulating a shooter by a particular builder started on the forum it seemed to be mostly big matches, State; regional or national matches at the time. However, lately it seems a little like“My daddy can beat up your daddy” around here when even winning local club matches garner recognition from friends and builder alike for use of the "team" rifle.Advertising is keeping a product name before the buying public, so that when it is time to buy a a new product you must have the one everyone seems to be talking about… but I think the shooter still pulled the trigger, I mean when a match is won the shooter is the hero...right??? or is it the builder??? All this just seems to rub in the face of shooters who can’t afford or don't own a certain builders guns. Or even a slap in the face of a builder’s whose guns did not finish as high. Remember great shooters shoot all kinds of guns built by many different gunsmiths. However the top shooters attend very few of the same matches each year like, PSL or national now.
There has been lots of discussion here on the forum as to why there are so many shooters getting out, and fewer and fewer new shooters coming in. It is quite simply the high cost of being competitive. I mean who wants to loose? A shooter wants to be competitive right? A shooter wants the best perceived equipment that will help them win. That’s why a public forum should not be used to promote services or expensive products. You see, false urgency can be created, to those seeking that advantage“the winners” have, some people will pay whatever it takes to have that type of gun which the others shooters have that seem to be doing all the winning .I know I use to be one who would pay what ever it took. Winning is what it is all about right? With all that is required; rest; flags; scopes; ammo, and gun this sport is not cheap.
I understand any rise in cost given today’s economy however the suppliers have tried to keep cost down. Times are hard all over and the suppliers seem to understand this; most suppliers are shooters themselves. If you look at the price of gun components; stocks, triggers, actions, tuners, barrels, pillars and trigger guards these prices have remained reasonable as well. You can obtain the components to build a fine rimefire rifle for 2k and everyone uses these exact same components. No, it has not been bedded nor have you threaded the barrel. Nor have you chambered, crowned or cut the extractor slots in the barrel. But is all this worth 5-7k more?
People have expressed concern that a certain gunsmith’s guns might become worthless on the secondary market if this talk continues. No, that’s not true a proven rifle will always keep its value; but not every rifle built is a killer no matter whose name in on the barrel. If a gun that’s for sale was in the hands of Kirk; DJ; Harry; or another good shoot and it has won big, if the barrel is still good then YES it has much more value, no matter who built it, I would consider it a proven gun. But who proved it? I would think it was the shooter; after all he’s the one pulling the trigger right? I mean without the shooters gunsmiths would be doing other things. So shooters are important right?
There are many good shooters shooting this gentleman’s guns but there are many more shooters, shooting others builder’s guns and they seem to be doing just fine. I don’t want to knock anyone out of any business but 6k extra seems like a lot. Remember Caveat emptor “Let the buyer beware”.
If you want to pay more then is necessary that is fine you have the choice but you don’t have to just to win. Save your money and buy land they don’t make that any longer. Like I said this is just an outsider’s perspective with just a little insider knowledge. Knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it could save you money too.
Tom
I feel there are many fine builders who post information on the forum and they are glad to answer the phone anytime anyone calls. Just Because they don’t post here under an alias or have a friend post for them, nor do they discuss in vivid detail a trip to the potty, where they had an epiphany about their next rifle. That doesn’t mean these other builders don’t contribute anything to this forum or rimfire accuracy, because they do.
Let’s just take a little mystery out of rimfire rifles; believe it or not, the three most important things to building a great rifle are (1) the barrel (2) the barrel (3) the barrel ; years ago it was the old Lilja. Now it is the Shillen that seem to have the edge. No magic… just great barrels. There is nothing wrong with free enterprise, marketing yourself or a little hype, but creating a demand on a public forum for a particular gunsmith’s services does not seem appropriate. Maybe word of mouth advertising like a good plumber gets or even a website like other gunsmiths have would be better to inform the buying public of innovations and quality. Public forum should be used for information and discussion and most of all fun not shameless self promotion. When the process of congratulating a shooter by a particular builder started on the forum it seemed to be mostly big matches, State; regional or national matches at the time. However, lately it seems a little like“My daddy can beat up your daddy” around here when even winning local club matches garner recognition from friends and builder alike for use of the "team" rifle.Advertising is keeping a product name before the buying public, so that when it is time to buy a a new product you must have the one everyone seems to be talking about… but I think the shooter still pulled the trigger, I mean when a match is won the shooter is the hero...right??? or is it the builder??? All this just seems to rub in the face of shooters who can’t afford or don't own a certain builders guns. Or even a slap in the face of a builder’s whose guns did not finish as high. Remember great shooters shoot all kinds of guns built by many different gunsmiths. However the top shooters attend very few of the same matches each year like, PSL or national now.
There has been lots of discussion here on the forum as to why there are so many shooters getting out, and fewer and fewer new shooters coming in. It is quite simply the high cost of being competitive. I mean who wants to loose? A shooter wants to be competitive right? A shooter wants the best perceived equipment that will help them win. That’s why a public forum should not be used to promote services or expensive products. You see, false urgency can be created, to those seeking that advantage“the winners” have, some people will pay whatever it takes to have that type of gun which the others shooters have that seem to be doing all the winning .I know I use to be one who would pay what ever it took. Winning is what it is all about right? With all that is required; rest; flags; scopes; ammo, and gun this sport is not cheap.
I understand any rise in cost given today’s economy however the suppliers have tried to keep cost down. Times are hard all over and the suppliers seem to understand this; most suppliers are shooters themselves. If you look at the price of gun components; stocks, triggers, actions, tuners, barrels, pillars and trigger guards these prices have remained reasonable as well. You can obtain the components to build a fine rimefire rifle for 2k and everyone uses these exact same components. No, it has not been bedded nor have you threaded the barrel. Nor have you chambered, crowned or cut the extractor slots in the barrel. But is all this worth 5-7k more?
People have expressed concern that a certain gunsmith’s guns might become worthless on the secondary market if this talk continues. No, that’s not true a proven rifle will always keep its value; but not every rifle built is a killer no matter whose name in on the barrel. If a gun that’s for sale was in the hands of Kirk; DJ; Harry; or another good shoot and it has won big, if the barrel is still good then YES it has much more value, no matter who built it, I would consider it a proven gun. But who proved it? I would think it was the shooter; after all he’s the one pulling the trigger right? I mean without the shooters gunsmiths would be doing other things. So shooters are important right?
There are many good shooters shooting this gentleman’s guns but there are many more shooters, shooting others builder’s guns and they seem to be doing just fine. I don’t want to knock anyone out of any business but 6k extra seems like a lot. Remember Caveat emptor “Let the buyer beware”.
If you want to pay more then is necessary that is fine you have the choice but you don’t have to just to win. Save your money and buy land they don’t make that any longer. Like I said this is just an outsider’s perspective with just a little insider knowledge. Knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it could save you money too.
Tom
Last edited by a moderator:
