Other, formal cassis in score shooting.

C

Charles E

curmudgeon
First of all, I'm not against attracting new shooters. I'm not necessarily in favor of it, either. Such efforts need to be made so as not to damage what we already have, or to start a circus.

I think this can best be accomplished by adding a couple formal classes to the score shooting. A number of us have participated in club matches that had at least one of the classes I'd like us to think about, a modified class.

I'm against a formal "factory class." The opportunities for cheating, or spending inordinate sums finding a ringer, are just too tempting. If the factory class is kept at the club level, they'll be best able to control things.

A formal "modified class" has real promise, I think. Shooters who spend money on improving their factory rifles are our meat, it is what most of us went through on our way to getting hooked by full-blown benchrest.

We've had a modified class at the Rockingham shoots, and Jackie has had one at his Texas shoots. I'm sure others have had experience with this too, and sharing those experiences might be helpful. Particularly if we can do it without too much "my way or the highway" attitude.

But there is still a hole. What about, say, 1,000 or 600 yard rifles? They are not legal (weight, muzzle brakes) for VfS. They are full competition rifles though, and as such, probably have too much advantage for a modified class. So another idea would be to have an unlimited class -- they do it in ARA rimfire after all, and that is score shooting. Those unlimiteds are pure competition rifles, but it would be a place for people with oddball equipment to give it a try, and might prove fun for BR sorts, too. RTB would be allowed, though I'm not sure how much advantage it would be in score ... interesting to find out. Or we could ask the rimfire guys . . .

As things stand, at first, anyway, you would have to pick which class(es) you're going to compete in. Probably a maximum of two classes per match, as is currently done at some IBS registered shoots (Hunter and VfS). I think to lose the one-day aspect of a score match would be a serious mistake.

Just some first thoughts.

Charles
 
Charles, that's pretty much verbatim of what UBR is already doing. The exception being that UBR DOES have a recognized and defined factory class. Do you think the other sanctioning bodies would ever follow the leade of UBR in, well....anything?---Mike Ezell
 
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Mike, Ideally, people will take good ideas wherever they come from. In fact, "not discovered here" is always a problem. And however else it differs, the perception of UBR is the somewhat varying target rings. I say somewhat because IIRC, they don't over .17, .20, .25, 6.5mm, and 7mm calibers with special targets. Could be wrong on that. Anyway, NDH is always a problem, along with "we've always done it this way."

Didn't realize you had an unlimited class. That might be enough to get me to drive to Tennessee. BTW, if I showed up with a "factory" gun, just how much examination would it undergo? I'll guarantee that all parts will be from the factory.
 
Charles,
If you will take the time to visit the UBR website and read the rules and classes you will see that many of the things you suggest are being incorporated just as Mike said above. I don't see changes like this being made in the future by the two larger organizations. It's just too great a hill to climb.

I fail to see a problem with adding new shooters in the game. Just like in business, you're either growing or dying. Right now our kind of shooting isn't growing. So far the kind of problems your predict with factory class aren't happening in UBR. Could cheating occur?..of course, but most of us are willing to follow the rules even if we thing they need changing. As I've said earlier, what we did this season in UBR is working.

Rick
 
Charles E said:
Mike, Ideally, people will take good ideas wherever they come from. In fact, "not discovered here" is always a problem. And however else it differs, the perception of UBR is the somewhat varying target rings. I say somewhat because IIRC, they don't over .17, .20, .25, 6.5mm, and 7mm calibers with special targets. Could be wrong on that. Anyway, NDH is always a problem, along with "we've always done it this way."

Didn't realize you had an unlimited class. That might be enough to get me to drive to Tennessee. BTW, if I showed up with a "factory" gun, just how much examination would it undergo? I'll guarantee that all parts will be from the factory.
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Charles,
The "varying target rings" are not a problem. They were done not to be fair, but rather to attract new shooters. They have worked very well. You are correct that right now, there are only the .224, .243 & .308. However, provisions for .17, .204 etc are being considerd. I shot a .204 in several matches and did fairly well. We used a modifed reticle to score it on a .224 target. This will be discussed over the winter. I do think you are correct that tradition is the major hurdle.

So far, factory rifles are pretty much taken at face value and the competitors word. I know that if you showed up at Gallatin and said your Savage/Remington was a factory rifle, I would take you at your word. I don't think anyone has been disqualified this year for such.

Although it may appear otherwise, I'm not suggesting that UBR is the "new messiah" of score shooting, I am saying that in many areas Danny got it right and what we did this year worked. That seems to me to be a good start.

Rick
 
Rick, I think you are dead wrong on two things. The first is that old "if you're not growing you're dying" business model. True story. My partner started our business with three other people, who we eventually bought out. After ten years, we had 12 full time and 25 part time employees. We looked at each other & said "we need management." And thought again. He's an engineer, and I'm a ... well, not businessman. We let attrition take us down to 6 full time employess, and have stayed that way for 20 years. Our only problem is succession, not dying.

Moral: No matter how large the National organization, matches are run by clubs, with volunteer labor. That has to be a factor in any decision.

Secondly, my comments on formal factory classes are taken from two shooting sports that had such classes. Eventually, what I've described happened in both.

* * *

I see my thread is a failure too. Instead of talking about ideas, the first two comments center around sanctioning bodies. I guarantee you that approach is the kiss of death.
 
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Charles, we can choose to disagree about both issues. When I say grow, I don't necessarily mean in numbers of emloyees. I've been in business for 30 years and being bigger isn't necessarily growing. Sometimes that can be like cancer. The place to grow is in your wallet. :eek:

I didn't realize my comments had to do with sanctioning bodies. I was jusy trying to point out things that have worked. You may be correct that in the long term a factory class will develop problems. But that is where the new shooters will almost have to come from. While there are a few who will spend the $$ to play a new game, there aren't enough to keep things going. That should be obvious.

It's time to try some new things. Someone once said, "if you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got". If we want different results, we will need to try new approaches to this game or it probably won't survive. I'm all for tradition, but that will only go so far.

Rick
 
Factory, modified, custom and unlimited classes sure brought out the shooters this year. At least I think it was the classes, rather than the target(s) that enticed people to show up. Probably some of each.

I have shot a couple times at a club that does factory and unlimited centerfire and factory and unlimited rimfire all in the same day. You can bring four guns and shoot all the classes. One target at one yardage per gun means it only takes about half a day. They shoot different targets each match. One target included ten bulls for score and one for group. There are lots of ways to have fun.

Keith
 
Charles E said:
Mike, Ideally, people will take good ideas wherever they come from. In fact, "not discovered here" is always a problem. And however else it differs, the perception of UBR is the somewhat varying target rings. I say somewhat because IIRC, they don't over .17, .20, .25, 6.5mm, and 7mm calibers with special targets. Could be wrong on that. Anyway, NDH is always a problem, along with "we've always done it this way."

Didn't realize you had an unlimited class. That might be enough to get me to drive to Tennessee. BTW, if I showed up with a "factory" gun, just how much examination would it undergo? I'll guarantee that all parts will be from the factory.
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Come on down to Tn, or Ky., and shoot with us. We'd love to have you, and I think you'd enjoy yourself. Good people, good fun, and a chance to try a new game. I'm sure your factory gun wouldn't get any more or less examination than a custom or modified. Unlimited is pretty wide open, except in respect to 30 cal or smaller.
 
Greyfox said:
Charles,
If you will take the time to visit the UBR website and read the rules and classes you will see that many of the things you suggest are being incorporated just as Mike said above. I don't see changes like this being made in the future by the two larger organizations. It's just too great a hill to climb.Rick
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Rick, where can I find the UBR site?

Roy
 
Charles, I've long been a supporter of an Unlimited class in 100-300 yd. BR Score shooting.

We look for ways to bring new people in, while ignoring the obvious...growing the sport from the pool of great competitors that already exists in the 600/1000 game. 100-300 BR Score can offer another venue to use the rigs they already own.

But like Tim Wilson says: "I could be wrong." ;) -Al
 
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Charles E said:
Yes Al, I'd really like an unlimited. For my own fun, not just to bring in the long range shooters.

See

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?80520-Piney-Hill-final-results-indoor-nationals-IR50-50


Charles, be at the Score Nationals in 2012 and make the motion and I'll bet in a couple of years we can have an unlimited class. Just takes actions in the right place at the right time to get things started. It won't happen overnight, but it will happen if it is wanted.

David
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I don't really have a dog in this fight, but while I probably should keep to myself, however I do have an opinion.

It appears from reading these post on the two or three threads running now as well as the one deleted, that some want to see the sport's grow ( at least the number of shooters grow) and some don't really care whether new shooters come in or not as long as it doesn't screw things up for the ones shooting now. There is validity to both points of view, that is if one can be objective.

One big problem in getting "NEW" shooters is finding a way to find those shooters. I am new to Benchrest Shooting. I am willing to go and shoot now. Finding out about shoots, has turned out to be a problem.

Since I started posting here on this forum sevreal of the members have made me aware of a few shoots, some I have been able to attend all club shoots. If I wasn't aware of this board and had the advice from members here I wouldn't have a clue were to even begin.

There are in all probability only so many shooters (New) that will be interested in organized shooting. Why is That? Well it is not cheap, that is probably the biggest factor. One other huge factor that I have seen with my own eye's on more than one occasion is the new shooter needs to feel welcome. So many of these clubs and "Organizations" want to talk about new shooters, but when they do show up the clique's, and good Old Boy atmosphere turns many of US off.

I want to shoot and I am going to shoot somewhere. For me personally this series of threads has introduced me to the UBR and the fact that they have a match only 200 miles from me in Gallatin, Tn. I also can shoot my Long Range rifle in there unlimited class. Thats almost heaven sent, back in 2000 thru 2006 when I was shooting BPCR Silhouette I shot a match somewhere almost every weekend. The closest was 325 miles One Way.


I don't care about the rules really as long as they are the same for everyone, just let me know when and were and I'll show up. To my way of thinking its there (UBR) sand box so they get to make the rules, if they are such I just can not abide them I'll go and find another sand box.

Roland
 
Hombre0321 said:
I also can shoot my Long Range rifle in there unlimited class.
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New shooters want a class that their current rifle fits into. Not many are willing to build or buy an expensive special-purpose rifle just to try a sport they are not sure they will like.
 
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