Old Springfield still shoots . . .

M

Montana Pete

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I posted a message here a while back entitled something like "Classic 03 Springfield." There were some photos.

Yesterday I got out to the range with 20 fresh rounds for the rifle. This is a sporterized NRA Springfield with a star-guage barrel.

The only sights I had were the original Lyman Model 48 aperture sight, with a ramp and front blade, with a sight hood.

I only had 20 rds, and wasted 10 at 50 yds, because the gun has not been fired in 25 years, and I wanted to be sure I was on the paper.

One of the two strings at 100 yds is enclosed as a photo. I used the big silhouette target because small targets tend to look pretty tiny at 100 yds, and I wanted an adequate aim point.

The rifle put four in 0.825 inches, with one flyer.

For what it is worth, ammo was as follows: New Hornady brass, Nosler 168 gr. HPBT bullets, 42.5 gr. of IMR 3031, and CCI "200" primers.

I also include a photo of the sight. The photo shows a hunting aperture, but I did put a finer target aperture into the sight before the testing.

It appears the old Springfield still shoots. Since I am nearly 70, I was happy that I can still use the iron sights.
 

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A Dad's smile!

Your Dad would have to be pleased! Pleased that you shot it, pleased that you shot it well, and pleased that a son can enjoy the same thing the father enjoyed. Keep shooting it, and may you feel your Dad's smile every time you do!

I hope my son and daughter hang on to my guns, and I hope they shoot and enjoy them, and I hope they remember how much I love them. Just as I'm sure your Dad loves you. Love never dies.:)

Take care!
Greg
 
And, I'm sure Dad is really pleased........

Pete, that after all these years, you still HAVE it to shoot!! I don't know how many times I've known fathers, that have only taken their children to the range once or twice, then the children go elsewhere for college, career, etc. The father passes on, the children sell off the guns, etc. and really don't have ANY idea what they're missing. We always hear of the "..stress in our lives." and "...stressful occupations.." yet, when one of us tries to communicate to others what a stress reLIEVER shooting is, we're usually only mildly successful at best. And those children that get rid of everything, have no sense of the portal to the past they could enter, any time the desire was realized; they could relive the pleasant times at the range, the wait of the hunt. Seniors are guilty, too, for not passing on the treasures of earlier times; for not making the younger ones aware of the responsibilities that can be addressed at an earlier age, and in an easier way than by surprise, later. The benefits are tangible, too. It has been revealed many times that children who grow up around, and with firearms, have fewer instances of problems w/the court system in the future.
So Pete, I'm glad you took the old girl out on another date, it ain't never too late, is it?? Glad you had a good time, have some more, any time. Just don't wait too long. ;)
 
An NRA Springfield with Star Gauged barrel is the true classic American Rifle.
Great old gun you have there.

Only thing I have that is a classic American rifle is my Savage 23B in .25-20, also all original excellent condition and a real tackdriver.

The old guns are the best for my taste.
 
Glad to hear the old girl still shoots so well. I've got an old Springfield that I picked up for a song off of a dealer's junk rack a few years back that I saw as a diamond in the rough. I have no idea who the maker was but the stockwork is beautiful though it shows a lot of wear from use. I notice that you mention the Lyman 48 sight which I guess is the one missing from my rifle and was originally on it before the addition of the scope bases by someone previous to me. I may try to get on of those sights and get mine back to original shape other than some base screw holes which I can plug. Here's mine.
 

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Whelenman--

We can still see the screw holes where the Lyman Model 48 sight was mounted.

On the Springfields, the sight was mounted on the right side. On some rifles of that era, such as the Model 54 Winchesters -- a kind of commercial copy of the Springfield -- the same aperture sight is mounted on the left side.

My rifle has both a scope and the Lyman peep sight. The scope mounts on Griffin & Howe double-lever mounts which are on the left side. To mount the scope, a person has to remove the top section of the Lyman sight, thus leaving room for the scope. The mounts I'm describing look like a "rail" that is mounted on the side of the receiver. Although the mounts are off-center, the scope itself is exactly centered over the receiver.

Your rifle is prettier than mine. The stock work is more elegant.

Have you taken it out and shot it?

I have a table that shows year of manufacture by serial numbers. I have to get the book from my bookcase and copy some of the numbers into an email. That will show any Springfield owner approximately when his/her rifle was made.

I read the book "Book of the Springfield" by a Captain Crossman. Copyright 1932. It has a wealth of information. There were at least a dozen or more models of the Springfield rifle. Those that had a Lyman Model 48 sight were probably limited to the National Match and NRA series of production.

Thanks for writing-- As for "Old Gunner," I don't know whether these old rifles are "best" as you say. The whole philosophy of design is different. The book puts the weight of an NRA Springfield at about 8.75 lbs. If you mount a scope, add a pound. No short barrel-- 24 inch all the way. Military sling, which is excellent for making a "hasty sling" for those shots where you are sweating and breathing hard, and trying to steady down the gun.

Today it is all short barrels and "featherweight" rifles, and magnum calibers, which -- combined with the ultra-light "mountain rifle" design -- must just about kick you out of your socks.

In his book, Captain Crossman shows several comfortable carry positions for the Springfield sporter in the hunting fields, which make use of the sling for a shoulder carry. Photos are included. This makes a hunter's carry of a heavier rifle somewhat more comfortable.

When you are up on the mountainside, and swinging your rifle on an elk, do you want an ultra-featherweight with a short barrel, or do you want a heavy, beautifully balanced rifle like the Springfield sporter?

I get people mad at me on a different shooting forum, challenging the "wisdom" of today's gun design. But that's the whole purpose of a discussion forum, right?

On the other forum, which is more a hunter's forum than a benchrest forum, I guess I am supposed to be impressed with the great knowledge of the posters. But, unfortunately, I am most of the time impressed with their ignorance.
 
I just checked around on the auction sites for Lyman 48 sights. It looks like they're priced at around $150. That's almost what I gave for the rifle. I may have to look around a while for a bargain. Mine is built on an O3A3 that was built around early WWII days so it was built sometime after that. From the looks of the use and style it must have been shortly thereafter. When I bought the rifle it looked like it had been sitting in someone's barn for years and both the exterior and interior were coated with dust and cobwebs. It's probably some grandpa's rifle who passed away and came to wind up at the gunshop traded for something new....a shame.
 
Whelenman--

Regarding your locating and purchasing this rifle . . .

you lucky dog ! ! !
 
Pete, I should mention that the bore is the original 2 line rifling that I thought wouldn't shoot at all when I bought it. Instead it's a good shooter and is consistant at around an inch at a hundred. That surprised me! I got it for only $175 which I'll tell since it's not for sale. Whoever did the checkering was a real craftsman.
 
Whelenman--

I have a friend who is a major expert on shooting -- a gunsmith, an experimenter, a real "brain."

He tells me the Springfield 2-groove barrel is the best barrel you can possibly find for cast bullets. It will shoot them into tighter groups than any other barrel he has ever tried.

Not that it can't also shoot the jacketed, of course.
 
My hats off to you German for your exhaustive testing on primers, and to Bob Jensen. I shot high power with him back in the 60's. One of the most knowledgeable shooters I've ever known (outside of BR).

I think your blog is fantastic, Thank you!
 
German: There is a word I have racked my memory to try and find the correct spelling for. (LOOSLY) the word is brieaunce I can not find the correct spelling, but it mean the flash of the primer. I can not remember my source for the word, it may have been in conversation with and engener from Federal on the subject of primers?


Do you know the word and the correct spelling?

For many years the Remington primers were held in high regard by High Power shooters, at least back in the 1960's. I can not used the darn high anvil primer in my Dillion 1,000's as they hang up and had to use up the cases of them I have on hand with the Sinclare hand priming tool. Glad to see the results of your inquiry into the subject of primer seating.

I also thing your use of SD is absolutely correct.

I believe what will happen over time and your mind has come to rest on your issue for your blog that your unconscious mind will discover a different approach to some of your material and you will come up with better solutions.

It would have been neat if you could find out what the testing platform that was used by Lake City to produce their 600 yard composite targets for the different years of there NM ammo production?
 
Al, I think the word is................

BRISANCE. I think there is an inter relationship between the primers ability to ignite, and the amount of force required to initiate that ignition.
 
brian roberts said:
BRISANCE. I think there is an inter relationship between the primers ability to ignite, and the amount of force required to initiate that ignition.
Click to expand...

Well I do thank you for that!

Meaning of Brisance: the shattering or crushing effect of a sudden release of energy as in an explosion.


I like your definition better.:D
 
This thread brings back alot of good memories

The Springfield 03 was the first rifle I ever "sporterized." Also the first one, and thankfully, the only one that I glued to the stock learning to glass bed an action. With the addition of match sights, I used the rifle for High Power matches. Using DCM AP ammo, that rifle would group a hair under 2 inches at 200 yards shooting prone. I could never get it to shoot that tight in standing or rapid fire though:) :) :)

In his book, "Small Arms Design and Ballistics" by Townsend Whelen, on page 163 he states "Prior to about 1915, the Frankfort Arsenal Machine Rest was used almost universally by the Ordnance Department of the Army and to some extent by the various cartridge manufacturers for routine ammunition testing." His description of the machine is too lengthy for me to type.

He then describes the Mann rest which could only be used with a special barrel of about 1 1/2 inches diameter fitted with two concentric steel rings fitted near the breech and muzzle.

On page 164 he describes the Woodworth Cradle, made by Al Woodworth, Ordnance Engineer at Springfield Armory. This cradle held a normal rifle with its stock and was used with the Mann Rest. On page 165 he states "The Woodworth Cradle was used at Springfield Armory for the accuracy testing of every National Match and Sporting rifle"
 
German you have just touched on a subject that causes no end of trouble. No one seems to have the same ideas as to definitions of words we employ in our discussions of these subjects. Why is there no uniform source of these technical terms. A single source of information that we all could go to for and understanding of these words.

I know that when I talk to some one from the primer manufacture, they had a different under standing for the word and indeed it was used to indicate flame strength, duration and volume.

On your blog you have captured pictures of the flames, the problem comes with our lack of understanding of what we are seeing in the pictures. And example is magnum primers. he natural inclination would be to assume that the more intense the flame, the more we would be inclined to agree that these were magnum primers. This is a false assumption.

The real meaning comes from your testing by actual shooting and the corresponding statistics, and data you collected. That is where I find your work to be invaluable.
 
brian roberts said:
BRISANCE. I think there is an inter relationship between the primers ability to ignite, and the amount of force required to initiate that ignition.
Click to expand...

I'm not certain but I think most primer compounds are classed as high brisance explosives, the reason they make very poor propellants if used on their own as in CB and BB caps.

I don't think their brisance is a primary factor in their efficiency in igniting the powder charge, as far as I know only Tertiary explosives (like ANT) or mining explosives like Gelignite or Dynamite actually require a high brisance ignition charge.
The rate of propagation is a determining factor of brisance, and results in the shattering effect. I would suppose that this rate of propagation does make primer compunds more efficient and increases reliability and reduces variations in the burning rate of the charge of powder.

If I remember correctly early primers using fulminates had atomized glass added to give the compound a source of friction to insure ignition. microscopic glass balls and other similar fillers are used to increase the effect of secondary detonation of improvised explosives and increase the shattering effect by a different principle. I've even heard that the spice "Ground Black Cummin" is added to homemade explosives used by some terrorist to obtain this effect.
I'd have to look this up to provide a better explanation of how that works.

I'd read of the use of atomized glass years ago as an explanation of unusual wear of the 19th century breech loaders. The glass pretty much got into everything and polished away at the heat treted layer of moving parts, and wore away at the bore like a lapping compound.

Only a very tiny amount of glass was in each primer, but many of the old buffalo guns and military rifles got a lot of rounds put through them between cleanings and the bullet lubes and other fouling acted as a carrier. If internal moving parts weren't throughly cleaned accumulated glass grit acted like valve grinding compound breaking through case hardening layers and wearing out sears and such and loosened the fit of breech blocks.



I don't know if non mercuric primers ever used glass.

PS
I prefer wood and steel to sythetic stocks and anodyzed alloy triggerguards and such.
Some German Silver or brass here and there can be nice if tastefully done.

I obtained an excellent condition Parker Hale PH5A target rear sight for one of my older Enfield rifles. The seller threw in a six position adjustable apeture sunshade at no extra cost. Hope I can still shoot well enough to make use of it. I'll have a six hundred yard private range to try it out on this summer.
Just obtained some Sieera Matchkings and plenty of powder, but the local stores still can't get Large Rifle primers. Luckily I found a couple of 100 cap trays I'd put aside years ago, I hope they haven't degraded in storage.
 
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Done at South Mountain range Known as the mirage capital of the south, as apposed to Ben Avery, know as the mirage capital of the north, that's pretty impressive. I have a large batch of Frankfort arsenal primers from 1928. I've often thought of trying, but never had a barrel I want to try them in.

I do enjoy the heck out of your blog and I hope you be able to keep at it. I know what a large commitment it is both financially and time wise. But the pay back in knowledge is well worth the effort.
 
Found this formula for Chlorate primer mixture.

Chlorate of Potassium 49.6 %
Suplphide of Antimony 25.1 %
Glass (ground) 16.6 %
Sulphur 8.7 %
 
Here's a sidelight since we are straying into old ammo for the Springfield == Chlorate primers and the like . . . .

I was reading in "Hatcher's Notebook" the other day. It turns out the 30-06 "M2" ammunition was loaded with IMR 4895 powder. Not sure exactly when M2 ammo series was manufactured, but I'm sure it was a long time ago. It is interesting that many of us still have this powder in our loading shops, and still use it.
 
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