New to long range shoot, ammo selection?

Hi,
Plan to build a new rifle for 500m "Fly Shoot" in Australia, or F-class / 1000 yds. Could you please advise me with ammo/chambering selection, barrel twist, bullet etc?
FYI, The action will be a Stolle Panda w/ .308 bolt face. Custom stock w/ barrel block.
I prefer .30 cal myself (easier to see the bullet's hole at 500), but open to inputs.
I just need it to be easy to load/tune, not too big of a round but can turn the case if needed.
Thank you & Best Wishes,
seb.
 
go ask on the f class forum, and see if it fits your 500 m needs....

mike in co
 
Hi Seb,

Actually, you're in the right forum, but maybe the title of your post needs something to attract the Australian shooters -- Tony Z, a.JR, etc.

The only "Fly" targets I know of in the States came about when Stuart Elliot, the late Alan Peake, and another guy came over for the Super Shoot & also took in the N.C. State 1,000 yard Championships. Since their traveling weight limit was taken up with PPCs, we lent them equipment for 1K. Turned into a 3-day party, and some "fly" targets came out. Very challenging.

In a .30, I'd look at a .30/284, or if you can get RWS brass, a plain-Jane 7.5x55 Swiss -- needs a boltface of .500 though. I have two BAT actions opened up for this case, and they will still pick up .472 cases, like the .308. The 7.5x55 is a wonderful case in a bolt-action rifle for mid-range shooting, just hard to get in the States. .30/06 capacity in a shorter, fatter, sharp-shouldered case. If you don't mind necking up, though, a .30/284 is the same, and the casehead is rebated to .472

I take the .30/06 as about the minimum .30 for any 1K benchrest shooting. Since F-class doesn't allow muzzle breaks, a smaller chambering, say 6mm or 6.5 might make for a better compromise for a dual-purpose rifle.

But best if you repost & put, say, "Tony Z" or "a.JR" in the post's title.
 
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Mike in co, thanks for the advise. I just would like to "spread" the purpose to 1000 yds, so thought that this forum would be okay to ask.

Charles, I've shot the Flyshoot for twice before. That's all in Brisbane. I used Stuart's gun once. Super nice peoples.
Actually, I'm asking a top smith in Australia to build me a rifle for the next WBC-12 (2013, in Sidney). Yes, this rifle will be 6ppc. But I plan to also use it (the action) for the Flyshoot, or F-class or the 1000 yds. Thinking of "one rifle, two calibers - for different matches. Reason is tight budget. This is why I choose a RBRP with .308 bolt face, and still have to interchange barrels & stocks. (the stocks will be barrel block instead of glue in). I know this is NOT ideal.
I ask in this forum because I just wouldn't spend his ("D") time by emails / asking too much questions, because I know he is very busy.

Thinking out loud, seems that I would choose .308 "only". I can also use it for F-TR, or F-Open. In case I have the chance later.

seb.
 
Please educate me on this (Fly) shoot? I have never heard of this before. Sorry i cant help with any suggestions for your rifle. All i know from my past experience is that you will have a lot of trouble building a perfect rifle for a 6ppc and a 1000 yard shooter. they are just way to different. I do understand the tight budget thing though!! I am raising a young family and there isn't any extra cash from the paycheck for this stuff. I have to spend a lot of Saturdays pouring concrete for folks to afford all this stuff!! Good luck friend and let us know how it all turns out! I will be curious to know! Lee
 
Seb,

If you are going with the .308, I'd say the first posters response was right. Go to an F-class forum. There are a few people who shoot BR and Palma or F-TR, but not many.

If you want a .30, I'd say the minimum is a .30-06. The case holds 25% more than a .308 (capacity, measured with both cases Lapua manufacture). I'm sure there will be some who say it is just too small, and it is on the small size. But it will launch a 210 bullet to 2,700, with a terminal velocity of 1,600 at 1K. See German Salazar's blog. There was a shooter at Hawks Ridge who used an '06, but it was improved. He did OK. Lighter bullets are obviously not a problem. Now, the .30/284 is basically a .30-06 in capacity, but with (usually) better brass. The Lapua .30/06 brass I've had is junk.

Moving down to 7mm, the .284 is a fine 1K F-class round. I saw several rifles so chambered at the F-class World Championships when they were at Butner, N.C., one belonging to a South African shooter who placed quite highly.

Moving down on further, the 6.5 in several configurations will let you shoot what "normal" 1K competitors use, either benchrest or F-class.

And the 6mm, obviously, is the current choice of hot rifles for 600 yard BR, and it does just fine at 1K.

You're going to have to first decide just how important that .30 is, and whether or not you can in fact see .30 bullet holes in the target at 500 meters -- I can't, but I'm old.

Good luck.
 
Hi Seb , How are ya mate ..The FLY is a difficult match to master as you know the group(out of 10) is added to the score (out of 50 ) x by 5 targets for a winner, which is unique .. I once thought that the ability to see the bullet placement was needed to do well ,but after a number of years at this game i no longer think this way .. It has been said before that Mirage was invented on my range and we don't get to shoot any matchs without a heavy influence up here in the Northern tropics ,so no matter what scope you have you most times will not see em .. My best fly result had a hat full of mirage that day so i saw only 1 or 2 bullets holes out of the 25 record and i ignored them because they probably were not trustworthy anyhow ,shot a 253.5 which is the 3rd best recorded in AUST since the FLY started in the early 90s .. If it is to be a crossover gun with a SRBR stock then i would have to go with an 8 twist 6BR barrel to shoot FLY/1kBR/ F,open with the 6BR and point blank with the PPC.. The SR stocks get real ugly to handle if you increase the recoil too much and nobody will argue with the accuracy of the little 6BR.. Then all ya got to do is then shoot it 10000 times to learn how to place emm..Good luck ,Pm me for more info if needed..JR..Jeff Rogers
 
Hi Jeff,

As I read Seb's post, he is going to have two stocks, both using a barrel block. All he'll have to do is take the barrel from the block, and the action from the barrel.

That puts him into looking for a caliber to shoot the Fly, and F-class, using a different stock fropm Short-range BR. Having said that, I'd think the 6BR is still a good choice. When I first met him, Alan Peake used a 6.5 (the European 6.5X57 improved, I believe), but that was back in the late 1990s, so the thinking might have changed.

If you can't see bullet holes at 660 yards in any case, and want good 1K performance, it might come down to what good bullets you can get in Indonesia/Australia.

Charles
 
Skeetlee, Flyshoot is invented in / origin to Australia, I think(?). Shortly, it's "combination" between group and score. The bull is a fly pic (not a dot or so) of about 1" or so. You are allowed to have a spotter for this match. It's very interesting, unique, and challenging match. Try to google "fly shoot" for more info.

Charles, with my little knowledge about ammos & by reading my reloading guide books...I'm confused here... am I right that .284 case (also the 6br, dasher, BRX etc) is smaller than .308 / 30.06? Is it (all) about case capacity to launch bullet faster & stays supersonic at long range? Please educate me on this.
Yes, you're right I would make two stocks for this rifle. One light for the LV, one (heavier-stronger-longer) for the Fly / F-class / 1000 yds. I believe the stocks need to be built differently regarding the weight, barrels & balance. I will let the receiver floats, add additional "catamaran fore-arm" (6" wide or more), and probably weight system on the stock for the Fly / 1000 yds match.

Hi Jeff, it's great to talk with you again.
I was also thinking about the 6br & dasher before this. Anyway, based on my very limited (2x) experience in Brisbane, the .30 hole was still easier to see on the target than the 6mm, especially when the bullet went to the fly. (yes it was actually BLURR most of the time, but for 75% or so of the time I still coud see the holes when the scope set properly & patient to watch). Being a newbie, knowing the previous impact - it's helpful to make necessary adjustments...

While it's no problem at all with the LV/ppc, I would ask reamer's availibility and bullet choices in Oz for the Fly, then decide the barrel.

Thanks so much, seb.
 
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Hi Seb,

Lets back things up a bit. You're an engineer, right? And you know that every product involves compromises. Design, material availability, cost, on and on. Point 2 is that an internet forum best serves specific things. It can't replace a book: too little space, to little time to check that the writing is both sound and complete -- esp. complete.

OK, your original requirements were : 30 caliber, .308 boltface, potential to win at both 500 meters and 1,000 yards, while shooting in formats where those restrictions are not generally there. Answers given, by me at least, respected those initial compromises.

There are still compromises. An F-class rifle, as I remember, can weigh 22 pounds, but cannot have a muzzle brake. A 1,000 yard IBS/NBRSA/Pennsylvania 600 yard or 1,000 yard Light gun can have a brake, but is limited to 17 pounds. I have no ideal about equipment restrictions in the Fly.

There is an old rule of thumb about 1,000 yard shooting: a MV of 3,000 fps and a bullet B.C. of .500. You can trade one for another -- higher BC (less bullet drag), less velocity needed. It's a guide only. The 6BR, right at the bottom of this formula, is doing quite well.

OK, a 17-pound, 30-caliber rifle without a brake is not a lot of fun to shoot. Well, 1K NRA prone matches use to be shot with .30 magnums, it can be done. Those rifles had less weight, too. But it wasn't fun, hence the move to chamberings with less recoil. The extra weight of F-class helps, but it is still in the serious compromise region.

What Jeff is suggesting is reevaluate the .30 caliber design restriction. If you do so a whole lot of other solutions open up.

A 7mm is a slightly smaller hole. Recoil with 168 or 180 grain bullets is still up there. But, with a .472 boltface, there are several chamberings that are seriously competitive: the .284 Winchester, the .280 Ackley, the newer Remington short guy (not quite as big as a .280 Ackley), maybe even a 7x57 Ackley, which has a larger capacity that the 7mm/308.

As I said in an earlier post, as the hole gets smaller, 6.5 or 6mm, choices open up. A lot -- enough so that a whole other set of compromises come into play. But these are "fine-tuning" compromises, a different order of magnitude that the original set. 6BR versus 6mm Dasher versus.243 Ackley versus 6 Ackley -- those sorts of things.

As to the .284 case: the .284 Winchester was developed to get a case of .270 like performance that would function in the (1960) newly designed Winchester lever and autoloading rifles that were quite strong, but needed a case shorter than the .270. It is about 2 inches long, and has a body diameter of about half an inch. Little body taper. Shorter neck, sharp shoulder, rim rebated to .472. The capacity of the case is almost dead on the same as a .30/06 -- or .270, its original design goal.

There is no doubt in my mind that a plain .308 will work at 500 meters. For a time, anyway, the IBS small group record was held by a .308 in 600 yard Heavy Gun benchrest class. Maybe it has been broken in the past two years, I dunno. But it is seriously competitive.

There is little doubt in my mind that a .308 gives up too much at 1,000 yards to be competitive against other chamberings, except where the rules prohibit them, as in F-class T/R. But as I also said, the guys who know the "fine-tuning compromises" of the .308 hang out on different forums.

Finally, you seem to be adding another constraint: a reamer that your Australian gunsmith might have. How would we know? An I'll mention some more issues: components that can be exported from the States. The U.S. government has raised the fees for the licenses needed to export components to the prohibitive level. Only large suppliers can afford them, and large suppliers don't carry "exotic" stuff, like BIBs bullets.

What I really think is that in order for us, on an internet forum, to be of much help, you need to get with your gunsmith, the fly shooters etc., and narrow things down. It isn't that we're unwilling, it is just the range of stuff gets too big for a post-to-the-internet forum.
 
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Charles, first it's my mistake that I "thought" the .284 has smaller case volume than the .308. I just re-read a handloading book.
Thanks you very much for your inputs.
Will consult with the smith for reamer's availibility etc.

seb.
 
Howdy , would you post the contact info for Rolf Martini ....RWS Brass.
Thank You
Vince
 
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