new round barrel conditioning

I

ifldned

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I'm new to 22lr benchrest but I have two fine rifles to test with, a 54.18 Anshutz and a custom Womack 52 Winchester. I don't clean the barrels except on rare occasion I will run a .17 caliber bore snake through it with Hoppes solvent and follow with dry patches with a wooden dowel. I would like to know how many rounds it takes to condtion the barrel when testing different brands of ammo. I know some lubes are more alike than others and takes less rounds. What would the maximum amount of rounds you would consider a thorough testing ? Sometimes I run 25 rounds through the barrel and it gets better and better. I don't know if it's the lube being saturated into the barrel or the barrel likes a certain temperature. Please give me your opinions and expertise on this.
ifldned
 
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ifldned,

My first recommendation would be to go out and get yourself a good quality cleaning rod, say an Ivy Rod with a brass jag and a couple of good bore guides, one for each rifle, then buy about a dozen brass/bronze brushes for .22 rimfire (.22 centerfire brushes are okay, but a bit too tight for my liking), and some 1/4" to 3/8" patches. Hoppes is okay, but there are several other rimfire specific cleaners out there that will give you much better results.

As to how ofter to clean your bore: at least after each match if not after each and every target.

Now, to answer your questions: Most of my guns have always been ready to compete after 5 or 6 fowler rounds passing down a clean bore. I usually fire the first shot over the top of the target, then move down onto a sighter and start firing the rest. It won't take long before you'll see them tighten right up. Although, a few years back I did have a gun that liked to be shot dirty and needed to have at least 25 rounds through the bore before it would settle down, but then it was a true killer gun. These didn't have to be shot at the match, but could be shot during practice. So, whenever I would practice I would stop before the last target and fully clean the gun at the range, then shoot one more target and pack it up dirty. But, that's very rare to find a gun like that. I wish I still had it!

As for testing ammo and how many rounds it takes before you'll know what you've got? Usually I've found that so long as the gun is tuned properly, when you have an exceptional lot of ammo you'll know within 5 to 10 shots. But, by the same token, if you have junk ammo or a not so good lot you'll definitely know that as well within 5 to 10 shots. In either case though continue to test the lot for at least 25 shots just to make sure. Ammo is expensive and you don't want to drop a couple of hundred bucks on a brick only to find that it was a fluke it shot so well. And, if you live in a full four-season climate don't do lot testing during the winter because what might shoot great when it's cold outside might not be able to hit a bucket once things warm up. I usually wait until it's above 65° before doing any lot testing before making any major purchases.

And when lot testing, a good rule of thumb is to clean your bore whenever you change lots of ammo even if they're from the same manufacturer.

Just my 2¢ worth!

Dave Shattuck
 
The "conditioning" that occurs in a barrel as rounds pass through it can be assumed to be simply a film of lubricant , or wax, on the surface of the bore after the bullet has passed over the bore. In this film is probably some particles, or actually molecules, of carbon or powder. It's only the presence of these particles that would make cleaning of the bore necessary. If they are limited in quantity and of small size, and their build up stops at some point then there would be nothing to be gained by cleaning. In other words, once the conditioning layer remains constant then it's not something you want to remove by cleaning.

My experience has shown no change in the amount of particles after 5000 rounds as compared to 100 rounds. This judgment is made by simply looking at what is left on patches run through the barrel. It's probable that different ammo would leave different particles after firing but in my checking of the better quality ammo there doesn't seem to be any difference.

Only in barrels that were heavily leaded (I can't say why the leading occurred) have I seen any advantage gained by cleaning a barrel in a rimfire. I have never been able to prove that removing the stable layer of lubricant had any effect on group sizes - except during that period while the bore was "clean"(the first few shots). Sometimes lead particles will collect in the throat and these may affect accuracy but this is not related to the deposit layed down in the bore. The formation of these pieces of lead doesn't seem something that can be controlled by cleaning the bore. If it were possible to remove the lead pieces between each shot with out disturbing the lubricant layer in the bore then you might show an improvement in accuracy.

The "carbon ring" that is thought to form just ahead of the chamber may contribute to accuracy loss but again I have never been able to confirm this This probably takes several thousand rounds to form to a degree that might cause a problem. This may be the determination Anschutz made when they recommended cleaning every 10,000 rounds.
 
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22lr barrel clean regimine

pacecil said:
The "conditioning" that occurs in a barrel as rounds pass through it can be assumed to be simply a film of lubricant , or wax, on the surface of the bore after the bullet has passed over the bore. In this film is probably some particles, or actually molecules, of carbon or powder. It's only the presence of these particles that would make cleaning of the bore necessary. If they are limited in quantity and of small size, and their build up stops at some point then there would be nothing to be gained by cleaning. In other words, once the conditioning layer remains constant then it's not something you want to remove by cleaning.

My experience has shown no change in the amount of particles after 5000 rounds as compared to 100 rounds. This judgment is made by simply looking at what is left on patches run through the barrel. It's probable that different ammo would leave different particles after firing but in my checking of the better quality ammo there doesn't seem to be any difference.

Only in barrels that were heavily leaded (I can't say why the leading occurred) have I seen any advantage gained by cleaning a barrel in a rimfire. I have never been able to prove that removing the stable layer of lubricant had any effect on group sizes - except during that period while the bore was "clean"(the first few shots). Sometimes lead particles will collect in the throat and these may affect accuracy but this is not related to the deposit layed down in the bore. The formation of these pieces of lead doesn't seem something that can be controlled by cleaning the bore. If it were possible to remove the lead pieces between each shot with out disturbing the lubricant layer in the bore then you might show an improvement in accuracy.

The "carbon ring" that is thought to form just ahead of the chamber may contribute to accuracy loss but again I have never been able to confirm this This probably takes several thousand rounds to form to a degree that might cause a problem. This may be the determination Anschutz made when they recommended cleaning every 10,000 rounds.
Click to expand...

Dave, thanks for your straight forward and detailed description of your cleaning regimine. I recently saw on "you tube " an interview with barrell maker John Kreiger. You might want to hear his opinions on cleaning barrells at the end of his interview. Also, I 've read the perspectives of Bill Calfee and it scares the "be Jesus" out of me to clean a 22lr barrel. Pacecil is right about how often Anshutz cleans it's test barrels.
Thanks, Pacecil, what do you think about cleaning with a .17 caliber bore snake made for air rifles, when changing to another ammo brand? ifldned
 
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One thing is clear, you will never see a factory Annie or Cec ever win a BR match with this bunk. Come to a match there Cec, see how the real BR shooters clean the guns on a regular basis. The "keyboard master" strikes again.
 
Cleaning with a snake instead of a rod is less likely to cause abrasion of the bore. Cleaning when changing ammo brand will eliminate, at least in your mind, the effect of residual lube on the ammo's accuracy. Again in my experience this effect is something that lasts for only two or three rounds. The lube layed down by a rimfire seems to be pretty stable and not something that continues to build up to the point where you must periodically clean it off and then start all over again and lay down a new layer.

Incidentally, Anschutz doesn't just clean their test barrels every 10000 rounds, that's how often they recommend you clean your barrel. You have to remember though (as maybe Tim points out) Anschutz is probably talking mostly to prone and position shooters. This type of shooting usually requires a lot more shots are fired with less time, less opportunity, and lack of a bench on which they can do a lot of cleaning. There are plenty of matches being won by "unclean" Annies. When you come right down to it, nearly all matches are won with a gun the typical benchrester would say is "dirty".
 
If you are going to combat with a pack, a snake is the the perfect cleaning tool. The abrasive particles that it accumulates won't harm that combat weapon enough to hurt. For a precision rifle, a hardened, polished steel rod is a better choice. I use a .17 cal with a large patch
 
f you pull on a cord with an abrasive particle between it and the bore you are capable of exerting only a very light lateral force between particle and bore. If you push on a steel rod and it flexes slightly, and it has an abrasive particle between it and the bore, you will probably abrade the bore. Granted the soft cord is more likely to pick up a particle but even if it does it's less likely to cause damage. I would rather take my chances with a system that has practically no chance of abrading if it picks up a particle than on a system that has an almost certain chance of abrading if it picks up a particle.

Also consider the case where no particles exist and what we have is the hard steel rod bearing hard against the bore verses lightly loaded soft cord. The hard steel will probably cause more abrasive wear than the soft cord.

All the above is based purely on what happens when materials rub against each other. It is independent of the character, intelligence, shooting skill, or experience of the person causing the rubbing. It is not meant to demean the opinion of any one posting here.
 
I just was reading ,Bill Calfee on barrel cleaning that I googled up. Bill says it is a very conservative estimate in his opinion that 50% of the finest barrels used by even world class shooters are ruined by improper cleaning. But he goes on to tell how it should be done with all custom made bore cleaning components.
ifldned
 
Fred,
Go to ara.benchrest.net/CalfeeCorner.html It starts out with,"Last year I rebarreled the rifle of one of the best benchrest shooters in the world". ifldned
 
Bill will not recommend the cleaning procedure for another gunsmiths rifle. He only sugests what to do with his own creations. By the way, the site you mentioned, can not be found with my browser. Says no such site can be found.
 
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Fred J,
Try googling, "interview with Bill Calfee on barrel cleaning" It starts the same way with" Last year I rebarreled the rifle of one of the best benchrest shooters in the world". Ifldned
 
I guess you know Bill C to stand up for him like that but I have no interest in what he recommends for my barrels. I clean my way and that's all that matters. Also, too many problems with Google and their sniffers. By the way, that an odd name. How gave it to you?
 
Fred J,
I'm glad you found the article and read it. I realize there must be more than one way to clean a rifle barrel. I don't clean mine hardly at all. Oh, about my name, "Ifldned".... I read part of your bio, you're going to like this. Repeat each letter one at a time and increase the cadence faster and faster. Have you got it yet?
The letters stand for "I FEEL THE NEED". Now go to "you tube" and type in "I FEEL THE NEED". You will get the scene out of the movie "TOP GUN" I raced motorcycles and then retired in 2006 racing rally cars. I held the record in 2000 on the fastest road in the west, highway 35 south of hollister, at 193 mph.But mostly did road racing, the illegal kind. I raced against or driven myself most cars under 600 horsepower. My personal race car was a Mitsubishi Evo 8, that I have been beaten only once by a Ducati 996 with a very fast rider on it and it took him seven miles down the twistiest road you even seen, to get his tires hot enough to pass me on the gas. I've run that Evo, against F-40 Ferrari's , turbo 911 porsches, hopped up Toyota Supras., you name it. Even beat my friends who are professional motorcycle riders . Go to you tube and watch "Evo vs Lamborghini " from Top Gear in England. Anyhow, my personal license plates are "Ifldned"
I'll give you a quote from my motorcyle racing buddy who held the #1 superbike plate for a couple of years in California. I asked him if he was short shifting on some of the long sweepers at Sears Point Raceway. He told me this is the way he rides a motorcyle," you see that redline, don't let it go below that". Fred, what kind of car racing are you into?
 
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