New guy here... newbie poor man's 1000 yard set up...

M

MagnumWheelMan

Guest
so... I shoot regularly, have my own 300 yard rifle & pistol range, & have been getting the itch to try going out to 1000 yards... I've found a spot, that will allow me the 1000 yards, but will only be available while the crops on our farm are out ( late fall, winter, & early spring )... I'd like to build a "poor man's rifle" to dedicate to trying a 1000... I'm a collector, & currently hav a few rifles I could use to start with, & build as I develope more interest, ( or if I don't suck so badly that I'm embarassed )... so in basic form, the rifle needs to be able to at least hit a target placed on a 55 gallon drum ( what I use for target holders on my range )

... I've already posted this question on a few other forums, & it was recommended that I stop by over here, because of the knowldge base...;)

I've also been playing with the ballistics calculators available on line, & this was my original list of rifles & calibers...

Ruger #77 stainless in .243

Mauser model 95 in 7mm Mauser

M-1A National Match in .308

BRNO bolt action in 30-06

Browning Stainless Stalker with BOSS in 338 Win Mag

since posting that list, & discussing wih other forum members, I know I probably want a 20 MOA scope mount, & likely a 30mm scope, to get enough adjustment

I'm kind of motivated to use the BRNO, as it was the last rifle my father in law bought, before he died ( after which, we inherited his collection ), the rifle is new, unfired, & has a single set trigger

I guess I could see buying a Savage, or lower priced Remington, if mounts, or the calibers I currently have are just totally unavailable / unacceptable, or the acessories cost more than buying another set up...

I'm trying to convert all my "real" hunting rifles over to stainless / composite guns, for all the different caliber I currently have, so the stainless Ruger & Browning ( both already being set up for hunting ) aren't as interesting to me to set up as a dedicated 1000 yard rifle, that at best will se occasional use... if I have to buy a new rifle, it'll put more of a damper on my already long "to buy list" for this year...

I can, & have reloaded before, but my bench is currently down for remodeing in that area of the house, so I'd prefer to be able to buy "match ammo" at least for the 1st few times, to see if this is something I can do well enough to drive me to want to continue...

so... suggestions as to which rifle ( prefer a rifle & caliber I already have available to set up as a desginated 1000 yard rifle ), or a cheaper alternative, in weapon, caliber, mounts & scopes, ammo to try etc. etc...

thanks... Magnum...
 
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Do yourself a favor and begin at 600 yards. Pretty much all the above will do fine there but will be a stretch at 1K. The 338 would be a decent choice, but I'm not going to say it would be much fun to shoot for long periods of time.

The 06 probably has the best chance of making it to 1000. Depending upon the twist, the 243 might make the trip.

As for buying "Match" ammo, there is no such thing. Forget any thought of shooting box ammo at 1K. Even in a competitive gun, the stuff is just horrible. As important as the rifle itself, is the reloading.

I'd probably look at 185/190 grain bullets in the 06. If your 243 will stabilize a 90gr, try that. I seriously doubt a factory barrel will work with a 107 or similar but who knows.

Get decent bullets regardless of which rifle you choose.

Try to get a 5 shot group of 6" at 600 and you're on your way.
 
Another poor shooter's recommendations

I am also just starting into long range and have limited funds. Let me tell you my efforts and results so far.

After reading an article on Savage's then new F/TR in a shooting mag I decided that would be the best way to get into F class shooting. I ordered one in April and dealer did not get me one until Nov of last year. I chose .308 because there are not too many fully tricked out guns used in that class. And Savage's have a great reputation.

I equipted the rifle with a Weaver 36T scope (another poor man's item) Put together some reloads and went to my first 600 yard match. I have NO experience or ability to read the wind so I just aimed at the bull and let them fly, group going where it wanted. I was very surprised that I did not finish DFL (Dead F***ing last) and the group was 4.490". I have done absoluty nothing to the rifle but tighten the action screws as they were loose.

Next match was 1000yds at Thunder Valley here in Ohio. Found out that the Weaver did not have enough verticle to get to that distance. So I have equipted it with 20 moa base and am planning on going to next 1000 yarder. I switched to another bullet recommended for 1000 yds. and went to a 200 yd varmit match this past week-end. Again with an initial load just "guessed at". The gun shot well. It shoots 1/4 moa five shot groups at this range.

I am happy with the rifle even though it is not a true benchrest gun, I think it is a good way to get started and not waste money learning with expensive custom rifles. I would recommend that you buy a better quality scope initially.

The only thing I would do differently if I were starting now would be to buy the new Savage 6BR. and a better quality scope.


I hope you have as much fun working at this challenging sport as I am. Good luck.
 
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Thanks for the replys guys...

I shoot regularly to 300 yards... making a jump further than that requires moving my target area to a different part of the farm I have a ntural back stop that is right around 1000 yards, & I'd be shooting over an area that would be more difficult to place a target barrel ( drainage ditch ) so shooting less might be more difficult...

I understand the relationship between rifle twist rates & bullet weight ( though obviously not the specifics... does anyone ever know it all in that area :rolleyes: )... curious if you guys think ( & I know I'd need to test in the rifle ), I could stabilize much over 200 - 220 grains with a good "sporter weight" rifle barrel with "normal" twist rate ??? in the BRNO 30-06 ??? just to try this fall

I know my .243 does ok with 100 grainers, but think it would go to crab much over that... I'd consider changing out the barrel, possibly even rechambering the gun of choice over the winter ( again, unless it would be cheaper to just buy the Savage in the 1st place ) BTW... my wifes family was Czech, & I like to be different, so unless it's like beating my head against the wall, I think I'd like to at least start with the BRNO... maybe rebarrel to another cartridge over the winter... if I got the 20 MOA mounts from CZ & bought a straight 16X Super Sniper or ??? other 30mm tube scope, I thought I might try the '06 before it gets too nasty this fall, ( with good "factory ammo" ), then look at rebarreling, & loading for that over the winter

some thoughts there are 30-06 ( again to be different ), with a heavy barrel, & a twist rate to stabilize a 220 - 240 grain HPBT bullet... maybe a .338 - 06 with a twist rate to handle up to 300 grain pills, or 6.5 x 55, or ???

any suggestions to help me out are still appriciated... thank...
 
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MagnumWheelMan said:
. . . I know my .243 does ok with 100 grainers, but think it would go to crab much over that...
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If your rifle will fully stabilize them, you might get decent results with 105 Scenars. I running them at 2,975 in my daughter's .243 over 47.5 grains of Retumbo and it's shooting very well to and beyond 1k. The Scenars don't seem as hard to stabilize as many long range .243 bullets.
 
MagnumWheelMan

I would opt for the 30-06 using Black Hill's ammunition using 175 or 190 gr weight bullets.
If you decide to load your own ammo in 30-06 RE22 with the 190 Sierra Matchkings works very well.
Lynn
 
Starting out poor - no problem

Buy a pair of Barrus Signature rings WITH +/- 20 inserts, I believe they are still being made, your local sporting goods store will order them for you. These will give you more than enough elevation to have your scope operate efficiently at 1000 yards. Any of you guns will "lob" the bullet out to 1000 yards. In setting up the rings just remember you want to "lower" the front of the scope-objective end and l"jack-up" the rear or ocular(eye) end. One thing, make sure you clear out any brush behind the drum as "seeing" the hit, will greatly help you sight in for the second shot, so get in the habit of holding the sight picture after the shot as you have about one second of hold before the bullet hits the bank. A muzzle break is a great benefit. One other thing, Seeing where you first shot hit (dust) remember to go back to your original sight picture(aim) and with out MOVING the gun - click the scopes cross hairs TO THE HIT --- your second shot should be on the drum !!!! To have a spotter with you will help you know where the first shot hits if you can NOT recover fast enought to see the bullet explode in the bank behind the target. Good luck, that's how I first started long range shooting - NOW I have 4 custom guns SO, watch out, if you catch the bug, it gets expensive.
 
The 102 year old 30-06 was the premier long range cartridge for most of the 20th Century. It still works. Like Lynn said, with a good 175 to 190 grain bullet there is no reason it will not get you off to a good start. After you've gained the experience you'll be in a better position to decide which of the modern, chic, cartridges is best.:rolleyes:

Ray
 
so you guys have me pretty much planning on the '06 for a few 100 rounds this fall, just to feel it out...

is there any merit to shooting 300 yards with several different loads, trying to see which bullet the rifle likes, or am I just wasting money, & would be better off going the full distance to test group sizes...

( FYI... my loading bench is still down... till winter, so I was going to try a few factory loads for this fall... )

is there much noticable difference balistically, ( aside from likes & dislikes of each rifle ) between these bullets...

Barnes 180 TS = .552 BC
Nosler 180 AB = .507 BC
Hornady 168 M BTHP = .450 BC
Hornady 180 BT SP = .425 BC
Hornady 168 A-Max = .475 BC
Sierra 168 MK HPBT = .462 BC
Sierra 180 MK HPBT = .475 BC

also anyone know what bullets Federal is using in thier "Fussion" line of ammo...
 
Factory ammo

Shooting factory ammo can be discouraging if you are serious about accuracy. Hitting a "pie plate" at 100 yards is one thing and most upper end factory ammo will get you that, but "one ragged hole" comes with precision reloading. I'm getting the impression from reading your posts that you kinda wanna try it but are a little apprehensive. Accuracy demands good equipment and reloading practices. Read the posts in the F class forum about the Savage before looking at that option. I've seen two of them and neither shoots well enough to be in the game at 1000 yard bench rest. If you are serious- think about trading some of those rifles in and get an honest to goodness bench rest rifle, load for it and you'll be hooked.
 
oneflyer is correct - up to a certain point. You should not expect one-hole accuracy with Remchester 180 grain SP hunting bullets but I believe that there are match grade loads out there for you to try. Your best bet would be if you could bribe a friend to handload some cartridges using the usual match loading techniques and bullets. That might be cheaper in the long run but cartridges like the Federal Match only run a little more than a buck per each so you have to weigh your options.

Shooting a few groups at shorter distances will certainly weed out the really bad ammunition. The longer the distance the better, but don't forget that when you get beyond 200 or 300 yards you will probably find that shooter and/or environmental errors will override small differences in the ammo. Use wind flags and a good front and rear rest. Use wind flags. I repeat, use wind flags.

As I said before, I certainly would not recommend buying or building a whole new rifle until you have some experience in shooting the long distances. Only then can you make a wise decision.

And find a Match in your area. Go to it. Observe. Ask a lot of questions.

And another thing. If you think you are poor now, just wait. :) :)

JMHO

Ray
 
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As stated previously, use wind flags, use wind flags, use wind flags, use wind flags, use wind flags................am I getting through?????

You cannot properly evaluate your shooting and loading results without using wind flags. To shoot without them is simply wasting components, time, and barrel life..........................Did I mention wind flags?
 
lngrng said:
As stated previously, use wind flags, use wind flags, use wind flags, use wind flags, use wind flags................am I getting through?????

You cannot properly evaluate your shooting and loading results without using wind flags. To shoot without them is simply wasting components, time, and barrel life..........................Did I mention wind flags?
Click to expand...

I stongly disagree with this statement....ah ..well...kind of....I think. :eek: How is that for a confidence! :D I may be the only one at this websit who believes this to be true , but....I can, have, and do, wait for those perfect days to load test. It may be at 3 am under the lights, but I wait. I am strictly talking about load development here. To become a "shooter" at any distance demands wind reading skills. With or without flags. I agree that it is very hard to compete against a compitent wind reader. Since I don't feel I am anywhere near that yet, I wait and test my loads during "those" times. I have been to a total of one 1000 yd match, and one 300/600 yd Fclass match. If you want to learn to shoot the wind, practice F class shooting. Having to wait between shots, and getting that instant feedback of how the wind just kicked your ass after every shot, is very educational. I feel that 1k is more about load technique and speed shooting than wind reading. Just my "uneducated" 2 cents worth.

So, yes you gotta have wind flags to learn to "shoot", but I think you are waisting "componants and time" if you are testing in a condition that you actualy need them.

OK GUYS....LET-R-RIP!! I CAN TAKE IT!! :eek::eek:
 
Tod

There's a lot of truth in what you say but . . . we don't all live in ND where you have those perfect days and nights for load development. ;);) Most of us have no choice but to shoot in conditions that are less than perfect.

But let me ask you this. If you have no flags out and shot #4 goes 1/2 inch to the right, what say you?? Bad load? Bad bullet? Shooter error? One of those unfelt zephyrs?

Flags can tell you a lot in rough conditions too. Sometimes the wind blows them out and sometimes it blows them in. It's good to know which it is.

For me, there are 2 reasons to try to shoot in ideal conditions. 1) To test loads. 2) To establish a dead-air zero.

But I always put up at least one flag.

Ray
 
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My point exactly! We would all like to shoot in perfect conditions for practice, but in the real world of a match, will we know how much to hold off to put the last shot in the group? It's only the experience gained by shooting over the flags that allows one to know just how much one should hold off.................oh sure, one can go to the sighter to see what the present condition will produce, but one learns from experience what to expect from watching the flags, and going to the sighter for the answer is less important than watching the flags.
 
Cheechako said:
Tod

There's a lot of truth in what you say but . . . we don't all live in ND where you have those perfect days and nights for load development. ;);) Most of us have no choice but to shoot in conditions that are less than perfect.

But let me ask you this. If you have no flags out and shot #4 goes 1/2 inch to the right, what say you?? Bad load? Bad bullet? Shooter error? One of those unfelt zephyrs?

Flags can tell you a lot in rough conditions too. Sometimes the wind blows them out and sometimes it blows them in. It's good to know which it is.

For me, there are 2 reasons to try to shoot in ideal conditions. 1) To test loads. 2) To establish a dead-air zero.



But I always put up at least one flag.

Ray
Click to expand...

Me to....it's always limp.....and besides....if shot # 4 is only out by 1/2 inch at 1000 yd's , it's ok by me!!!
 
lngrng --

one can go to the sighter to see what the present condition will produce
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What 1000yard realms do you shoot that let's you go to the sighter????
That is short range 100/200 stuff....... is it not?
Not in 600/1000BR and/or F-Class..... that I've ever heard of!!!!


I live in ND as does Tod, but at the South end of the state (he almost lives in Canada, or that far North).
I like the calm for certain testing, but the wind is my true friend for load development to my 600/1000 loads.
"One needs to become one with the wind"..... Or something like that.....hehehe

Happy Shooting
Donovan Moran
 
Thanks for the replys guys...

my normal range has lots of new trees planted along both sides of the range... intent was to block some of the noise & possibly wind ( certainly makes reading wind easier )... but that is only to 300 yards, & in reality, I could be creating turbulance as wind blows between the trees... nothing I've ever been able to notice really in 300 yards though...

... but to go out to 1000 yards, I'll have to go a different direction to the target... I can add flags for a couple 100 yards, & out towards the target, but it will be tougher at500 - 700 yards, as I'll be shooting over a drainage ditch

so while on the subject of wind flags & estimating wind... I was on a simulator the other day, that used a flag that you were supposed to use for making scope adjustments...

is there a regulation wind flag ??? size ??? weight ???

any links to how to estimate wind by using a wind flag ???
 
lngrng said:
My point exactly! We would all like to shoot in perfect conditions for practice, but in the real world of a match, will we know how much to hold off to put the last shot in the group? It's only the experience gained by shooting over the flags that allows one to know just how much one should hold off.................oh sure, one can go to the sighter to see what the present condition will produce, but one learns from experience what to expect from watching the flags, and going to the sighter for the answer is less important than watching the flags.
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I Never even mentioned the word practice. I said load test.....big difference!! One has to practice in the wind, for that there is no doubt. It was mentioned that the guy try some different types of factory ammo and different weight bullets and maybe different guns. He probably has yet to gain the wind reading skills it takes to be compeditive. Now...that good old shot # 4 goes 1/2 inch out, was it the ammo or the wind? I want to know it was the wind!!! I want to know it was the load!!!! Why throw the wind into it if you don't yet have the skills to read the condition. I have sent many shots down range, but I am never truly confident on the load I am on untill I shoot a bunch of bugholes w/o wind. Then I know that that 1/2 inch was wind. Yes I use flags when I test, but I could just as well leave them at home. Shure...once in a while there might be a flutter, and no , I don't shoot at that time. So...Yes..I may be proving your point about using flags ....to a point. I just won't load test in that condition. I will practice....but again...whole different deal.

THAT'S JUST ME...WHO KNOWS...MAYBY THE GUY CAN READ THE WIND WITH THE BEST OF YOU.:)
 
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