Need some serious help please

T

TommyT JR

Guest
After recently recieving a few benchrest rifles i have a few serious questions. I have loaded my own loads for a few of my varmint guns .22-250 .222 .223 and .243 so i have a basic concept of reloading and accurate rifles. The new rifles are chambered in .22br .22ppc 6mmbr 6mmppc and .22 cheetah. I have loads that was included for each rifle so i know overall length etc. I've been reading alot and found a few things on these but im lost when it comes to having to modify brass to shoot in these guns. You guys correct me if im wrong but a .22br is a 6mmbr case ran through a .22br sizing die then loaded to your choice of goodies. A .22ppc is just a .220 russian case purchased through lapua or norma and loaded to your specs. 6mmbr is just lapua or norma brass and loaded to specs. I have no clue on the 6ppc. the .22 cheetah is a .308 br case put in a .22 cheetah die to accept .22cal bullets. Is there any info im missing here? Also im curious how you determine how to seat bullets like .010 into the lands or .015 out of the lands. or determine where exactly the lands are. I know there is alot to learn but right now i would like just a good safe starting point. Thank You guys for your time
 
Tommy,
I wouldn't be surprised if you have some tight neck chambers in that mix, talk to the guy you got them from( if he's still around).Otherwise, work with one gun at a time and figure out exactly what you have.Be careful.Try and find some local,experienced help.
Joel
 
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A big bite to chew!!!

Wow, that is taking on a handful if you are new to wildcats and tight-neck chambers. As mentioned by Nader, you must know your chamber dimensions and neck size before proceeding. Talk to the seller or get some Cerrosafe and start making chamber cast for each chamber. Below is some basic information on the 22BR and 6PPC. Hope this helps, tiny

22BR - http://www.6mmbr.com/22BR.html

6PPC - http://www.6mmbr.com/6PPC.html
 
Be careful. In spite of all the knowledge available on the internet and in forums like this one, there are a myriad of details that must be attended to.

That's one of the things books are for. With published works, at least good ones, people have taken time to think things through, the writing has been reviewed for clarity and accuracy, and the odds that the material has been covered well and completely are much higher.

Sinclair International has long had a well-respected handbook that is pretty cheap: the Sinclair Precision Reloading and Shooting Handbook.

http://www.sinclairintl.com/newsletters/99a9.html

While it doesn't give loading data, it covers many of the questions you've asked and is a valuable resource.

Take it slow & understand what's going on with tight-necked wildcats,

Charles

EDit:

BTW, the link I gave is from 1999, and Sinclair's has been bought by Brownell. They may or may not still have the book. But it is not out of date, and a used copy would still be a good addition to your bookshelf.
 
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TommyT JR said:
After recently recieving a few benchrest rifles i have a few serious questions. I have loaded my own loads for a few of my varmint guns .22-250 .222 .223 and .243 so i have a basic concept of reloading and accurate rifles. The new rifles are chambered in .22br .22ppc 6mmbr 6mmppc and .22 cheetah. I have loads that was included for each rifle so i know overall length etc. I've been reading alot and found a few things on these but im lost when it comes to having to modify brass to shoot in these guns. You guys correct me if im wrong but a .22br is a 6mmbr case ran through a .22br sizing die then loaded to your choice of goodies. A .22ppc is just a .220 russian case purchased through lapua or norma and loaded to your specs. 6mmbr is just lapua or norma brass and loaded to specs. I have no clue on the 6ppc. the .22 cheetah is a .308 br case put in a .22 cheetah die to accept .22cal bullets. Is there any info im missing here? Also im curious how you determine how to seat bullets like .010 into the lands or .015 out of the lands. or determine where exactly the lands are. I know there is alot to learn but right now i would like just a good safe starting point. Thank You guys for your time
Click to expand...

Wow,you have a christmas tree of possibles.
The Cheetah is a raging thunder,IMR-4320 is a good powder for it as is IMR-4064,i would start at 38 grains and work up.
The ppc,both 6mm and 22 are probably tight neck chambers,you will need to know neck dia. and the 6br is also a possible tight neck,so if they are,you will need to turn necks so a loaded bullet is about .002 to .003 smaller than the neck dia.
The 22 ppc could be a short 22 ppc or a full length ppc.
powders are h-322 and n-133 for the ppc's and h-4895 or n-140 are good for the br case.
 
TommyT JR said:
After recently recieving a few benchrest rifles i have a few serious questions. I have loaded my own loads for a few of my varmint guns .22-250 .222 .223 and .243 so i have a basic concept of reloading and accurate rifles. The new rifles are chambered in .22br .22ppc 6mmbr 6mmppc and .22 cheetah. I have loads that was included for each rifle so i know overall length etc. I've been reading alot and found a few things on these but im lost when it comes to having to modify brass to shoot in these guns. You guys correct me if im wrong but a .22br is a 6mmbr case ran through a .22br sizing die then loaded to your choice of goodies. A .22ppc is just a .220 russian case purchased through lapua or norma and loaded to your specs. 6mmbr is just lapua or norma brass and loaded to specs. I have no clue on the 6ppc. the .22 cheetah is a .308 br case put in a .22 cheetah die to accept .22cal bullets. Is there any info im missing here? Also im curious how you determine how to seat bullets like .010 into the lands or .015 out of the lands. or determine where exactly the lands are. I know there is alot to learn but right now i would like just a good safe starting point. Thank You guys for your time
Click to expand...

Tommie, I think you need to start slow. Do ONE at a time on these until you're totally comfortable. Pick one and start in, asking lots of questions right here. There are dozens of folks right here who've spent years with all of your choices but the problem is that EACH ROUND that you've got has its own unique characteristics. You're partially right so far, sounds like you've been doing some reading.

Listen carefully to all of the replies here and take the time to understand them. You've got a task ahead of you!

Couple items:

For the .22 CHeetah, (Carmichel/Huntington) just use .243 brass instead of the hard-to-find URBR stuff. Use Lapua .243Win brass for best results. I'll suggest that you start with this chambering because it's the least accurate and still will be good to learn on. Measure the twist-rate of the CHeetah, if it's a 7" or 8" twist you may be able to make something usable out of it. 10"-12" or 14" twist and you'll be limited to light bullets. Forming CHeetah brass from .243 is a simple matter of running it into the die. KNOW and UNDERSTAND this though, you MUST go slow when setting your die for this necking down process. DO NOT just screw it down til the shellholder touches and go to town. In fact, NEVER do this again! ;) Always start high and slowly move down...... sneak up on it until you've achieved that point where the freshly sized case chambers with solid resistance. This "crush-fit" allows your cases to fireform properly.

To determine where the lands are you load up a dummy round with the bullet seated "long", in other words just start the bullet into the casemouth and LET THE RIFLE SEAT IT :) Be careful when you extract the round as it may stick in the riflings. If it does you can carefully use a cleaning rod for help in un-sticking the round. If you can't get a good reading then lessen your neck tension and try again. (Do you understand the adjustable neck bushing concept?) To make your life easier, get'cherself a silver Sharpie from the variety store, coet the bullet with silver, let it dry for 3min and seat your bullet. When you pull it out it'll be marked by the riflings. This point is YOUR jamset. It doesn't correspond with anyone else's except through luck, it's just how YOUR rifle is set up. Now you measure this length using an ogive measuring device like this Sinclair "nut"........

http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=RESDTCO&item=09-600&type=store

WRITE THIS NUMBER DOWN!!!

Get used to this. Write everything down including the date. your rifles are now separate entities, nothing can be supposed to interchange. ALSO, your unique rifles ARE DIFFERENT EVEN FROM OTHER SIMILAR CUSTOM CHAMBERINGS!!!

DO NOT assume that because you've got a .22BR or a 6PPC that it's "like" someone else's, chances are great that IT'S NOT!

You are entering an entirely new world of precision. It's a wonderful world where things WORK as they should but also a world where there are no safeguards built in. The nasty slop and infernal clearances built into factory stuff is gone. Get stupid with your setup and you'll have NO BACKUP. Chances are that your chambers are minimum length......if you set your dies wrong you'll end up with brass which "grows in length", an abomination in the world of accuracy, the result of ignorance, but common nonetheless. IF YOUR BRASS GROWS and you're shooting a min/min chamber you're headed for real trouble. These rifles have got all of the "lawsuit proof" stuff removed. Screw up and they will blow up. You hotload a CHeetah that's grown long and crimped onto the bullet and you may find yourself scrabbling around on your stumps and knees looking for your eyeballs......in quiet world. I HATE quiet-world :( Remember too that those teeny little BR and PPC cases are no safer than big cases. These are HOT-RODS, they are designed to run at ungawdly pressures as a matter of routine. A PPC doesn't even START to shoot until it's loaded to pressures not approached by any loading manual.

All of these chamberings are SAFE.....extremely safe....... but the factory safeguards of over-large tolerances have been removed. As has been mentioned you may also have some tight-necks in the mix. Chambers which require that you trim the necks not only for length, but also for thickness.

Go SLOW

WRITE everything down, take scrupulous notes

ASK QUESTIONS, lots of questions.

ENJOY an incredible level of accuracy. If these truly are BR quality rifles you're about to learn exactly why factory rifles CANNOT and WILL NOT EVER be truly accurate. You are entering a new world. ENJOY it, savor it slowly.

And first of all, take the time to BE SAFE :):)

hth


al
 
Thanks for all the help so far guys please keep it coming. thats why im here to learn. I want to take this slow and not injure myself or my equipment and your right 1 at a time i was just trying to undestand the basics and i will probably mic out all the chambers with the compond stuff and post my specs for help These rifles was my dads he recently passed away due to brain cancer but im not here for a pitty party just some help ive been around this stuff my whole life but i always went the shotgun route on seeing just how good i could get a factory gun to shoot which i have had great results with i doubt if i ever enter a benchrest competition but it would be nice to shoot a good 200 yard .50 or smaller group to make him proud once in a while thanks again keep it coming please
 
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Tommy, Sorry to here about your father and that is a terrible way to receive rifles. Do you know if your dad purchases these as "used" guns or did he have them built by a local gunsmith? If your dad had them built, try to figure our by which gunsmith and contact them to see if them have notes on the rifles and would have a reamer print for the chambers.

Good luck and welcome to BR, tiny
 
The guy that built them is gone he passed away about 5 years ago he built some wild rail guns out of scratch and one of the first that i seen at the time a .50cal bmg into a benchrest rifle yell i know its a bad way to recieve stuff alot of these was just put on the rail and shot at 100 and 200 yards found the load that shot the best and sent it to dad then he would order a stock and bed it properly and only sight it in then a good tight group and that was it thanks guysfor the help so far
 
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If there is any way you could find a benchrest shooter in your area I'm pretty certain they would go the extra mile to help you through this. I went though the learning curve on my own and it would have been sooooo much easier to just have someone there to explian it to me. Most guys that really know this stuff really like to help others learn it.

Russ Hardy
 
i did not see it posted here, but it is "normal" to mark the neck dia on the bbl back by the reciever....so check there....

mike in co
 
As per Mike in Colo, if they are tight necked they should have a neck diameter engraved or stamped on the barrel. It would be something like this, 6 PPC .262NK, 6 PPC 262NK, .22 PPC .246NK or .22 PPC 246NK or similar designation. If there isn't a marking behind or in the vicinity of the caliber designation, it doesn't mean it's not a tight necked chamber especially if the rifles are used rifles that you picked up. Someone who does only their own work may not designate anything on the barrel in anything other than a black marker. You might also contact the gunsmith whose name should be on the barrel. As with the neck diameter, it may or may not be there.
 
Tommy,

Take all the previous warnings seriously, but don't let them scare you away.
I would also suggest posting where you are located. Chances are good that there is an experienced BR shooter close by that would be willing to coach you through the basics............seems we all love to help a new shooter!

Welcome to the world of incredible accuracy!
 
rhaney2 said:
Wow,you have a christmas tree of possibles.
The Cheetah is a raging thunder,IMR-4320 is a good powder for it as is IMR-4064,i would start at 38 grains and work up.
The ppc,both 6mm and 22 are probably tight neck chambers,you will need to know neck dia. and the 6br is also a possible tight neck,so if they are,you will need to turn necks so a loaded bullet is about .002 to .003 smaller than the neck dia.
The 22 ppc could be a short 22 ppc or a full length ppc.
powders are h-322 and n-133 for the ppc's and h-4895 or n-140 are good for the br case.
Click to expand...


Whoa...IMR 4320 in a cheetah?? Only with light bullets! I had something similar and used 80 grain bullets and ran RL25 and H1000.
 
yell that was being a little hard but it dosent scare me all it takes a person with common sense and a very close attention to detail i found the sinclair book on wildcat and case prep really explains it good in black and white to me i going to read from cover to cover till i fully understand and i think a few of the rifles have the size on them i will look closely at them and really go through the ammo for them and take plenty of notes but you guys are doing a huge favor by posting the info that you know thanks again
 
that book looks very interesting i will have to order it i have years of back issues of precision shooting i will get them and go through also as soon as the snow starts flying. ive been reading the sinclair book and on here alot proably havent got to it yet but could somebody explain alittle more on moving the shoulder back on a 6ppc i understand run it through a full resizing die is this cause of overall length or the reamer from one chamber to the next maybe a .001 or so off thanks again guys
 
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