Maybe the dumbest thing I've ever done...

M

MarkR

Guest
Well, how do I start? O.K., yesterday evening I started getting my 100 6PPC brass ready to load. They have been fired 2 times each not including the fireforming that I did without bullets (powder and wax). I've got my new Harrels FL die in hand and need to set it up to bump the shoulder back about
.001 because I had a click at the top of the bolt stroke on almost all of these after the last firing. I go about setting the die up, inching it down till I had about .001 setback using the bump gauge. All of this time I noticed that I had to keep adjusting the primer punch because it wasn't nearly getting the primer out of the case...(I know, I should have deprimed seperately :mad:)...sooooo at any rate I keep adjusting the rod down till the primer falls out at the bottom of the stroke, every thing cool, I finish the 100 brass and go ahead and do the 30 that came with the rifle as well since I've put a Leupold comp 45 on it this week and it will need sighting in, I'll use the older brass for that, every thing is peachy so far. I get out my priming tool and get ready to prime my brass, The first one was a little hard to seat fully, no..., a lot hard to seat enough so that I can slide the brass out of the shellholder, I'm stunned, but hard headed, so I stick another piece of brass into the priming tool and seat another primer...this one will not go in far enough either so I finally put enough force on the priming tool so that I can get the piece of brass out. I'm really scratching my balding head at this point and my faithful English Bulldog Chopper knows that something is amis at this point so he gets up and vacates my space...:eek:
Sooooo, I go out to the shop for a depth mike to see whats going on here and lo and behold, all of my primer pockets are about .092 deep. I guess many of you here have figured this out by now and the only thing that I can figure is that while adjusting the decapping rod (which I shouldn't have been doing in the first place because I should have manually deprimed the brass first.....:mad:....I have over adjusted the depriming rod and while resizing the brass, I pushed the base of the primer pocket back as well. Thats the only thing that my pea brain can come up with at this point. I suspect that I've ruined all of my brass at this point, not that I can't replace it, I just don't think that I can relace it by next weekend so I can go to a match...WOW, I cant believe that with all the years of reloading experience that I have...I did something this stupid!
Any and all suggestions and help would be appreciated at this point.
Thanks
Mark
 
Some press--Die-- shellholder combinations bottom out hard when the die
and shell holder come together. This makes it hard to feel any changes
in case sizing. I have shortened most of my shell holders and can feel
anything out of ordinary, such as the decapping rod bottoming out. Bumping
shoulders accurately gets pretty iffy also.
Its probably not wise to try saving that brass. The stretch changes the flash hole and reaming pockets now would leave them thinner.
 
You should be very happy if that is the dumbest thing you have ever done. I would not admit to a couple of mine.
 
Bob Kingsbury said:
Might be good to see if the decapping rod is bent .
Click to expand...

Bob, thanks for the advice. I am really not looking to salvage this brass! If I put a cutter in the primer pocket to uniform it I believe that would make the brass too thin at the bottom of the flash hole. I probably would try to swage them back but I don't really know of a tool that would effectively do that. It would probably rip the rim off of the case anyway. I'll just chalk this one up to very time consuming experience. By the way, the decapping rod is not bent and there is no malformation of it around the decapping pin.
Thanks
Mark
 
Im not familiar with that die. Is the decapping pin held in with a collet style end? If so, it sounds like it got pushed up into the decapping rod to the point that it wasn't long enough to remove the primer without bottoming out on the web of the case.

I had to replace a decapping rod once because I had adjusted it down too far and bent it.
 
Last edited:
sbindy said:
Im not familiar with that die. Is the decapping pin held in with a collet style end? If so, it sounds like it got pushed up into the decapping rod to the point that it wasn't long enough to remove the primer without bottoming out on the web of the case.

I had to replace a decapping rod once because I had adjusted it down too far and bent it.
Click to expand...

This decapping rod is a piece of all thread center drilled and a decapping pin is pushed in. The deapping rod and pin are the same as the spare that I have in both length and decapping pin protrusion.
Thanks for the ideas
Mark
 
MarkR said:
Well, how do I start? O.K., yesterday evening I started getting my 100 6PPC brass ready to load. They have been fired 2 times each not including the fireforming that I did without bullets (powder and wax). I've got my new Harrels FL die in hand and need to set it up to bump the shoulder back about
.001 because I had a click at the top of the bolt stroke on almost all of these after the last firing. I go about setting the die up, inching it down till I had about .001 setback using the bump gauge. All of this time I noticed that I had to keep adjusting the primer punch because it wasn't nearly getting the primer out of the case...(I know, I should have deprimed seperately :mad:)...sooooo at any rate I keep adjusting the rod down till the primer falls out at the bottom of the stroke, every thing cool, I finish the 100 brass and go ahead and do the 30 that came with the rifle as well since I've put a Leupold comp 45 on it this week and it will need sighting in, I'll use the older brass for that, every thing is peachy so far. I get out my priming tool and get ready to prime my brass, The first one was a little hard to seat fully, no..., a lot hard to seat enough so that I can slide the brass out of the shellholder, I'm stunned, but hard headed, so I stick another piece of brass into the priming tool and seat another primer...this one will not go in far enough either so I finally put enough force on the priming tool so that I can get the piece of brass out. I'm really scratching my balding head at this point and my faithful English Bulldog Chopper knows that something is amis at this point so he gets up and vacates my space...:eek:
Sooooo, I go out to the shop for a depth mike to see whats going on here and lo and behold, all of my primer pockets are about .092 deep. I guess many of you here have figured this out by now and the only thing that I can figure is that while adjusting the decapping rod (which I shouldn't have been doing in the first place because I should have manually deprimed the brass first.....:mad:....I have over adjusted the depriming rod and while resizing the brass, I pushed the base of the primer pocket back as well. Thats the only thing that my pea brain can come up with at this point. I suspect that I've ruined all of my brass at this point, not that I can't replace it, I just don't think that I can relace it by next weekend so I can go to a match...WOW, I cant believe that with all the years of reloading experience that I have...I did something this stupid!
Any and all suggestions and help would be appreciated at this point.
Thanks
Mark
Click to expand...



A couple things here that popped into my mind:

First, if the bolt clicks at the top after firing, it's not a shoulder bump back problem. It's a body squeeze problem and/or a high pressure problem. Since you didn't mention anything about hot loads, I'd say your die is not squeezing the web area and body of the case in enough. If the bolt won't close on a loaded round then it's a shoulder bump back problem. Rule of thumb: can't go in=headspace. Can't come out=die too large in body area.

2, depriming while sizing is not a sin. It's the norm. It won't hurt a thing. The vast majority of competitors let the sizing die deprime. Absolutely no need to make it a seperate step unless you're trying to "feel" something apart from the depriming.

3, you might just have the world's first batch of Lapua 220 russian brass with shallow primer pockets. Uniform them with a quality cutter tool and go shoot them. Just about every other brand of brass will shave out some material from the pocket when they are uniformed and NONE of them are as tough as Lapua 220 cases are. Never seen one get hurt yet from thinning the pocket and I've done thousands of super soft remington ultra mag brass with much bigger heads. We're lucky to be using the hardest brass on the planet in our ppc's and it's part of the reason why they work they way they do.

Good luck!
 
Ruined Brass

Mark,
Dont feel bad,when I was shooting a PPC and just gotten a new Harrels die I commited the same error and ruined 50pcs of new brass.
it can happen to anyone.
Nick
 
One time I assumed that the replacement rod for my FL die (same brand as yours) should stick up the same amount as the one that it replaced, and I did not notice that the rod was running into the bottoms of the cases I was sizing. Luckily, it only ruined a dozen well used cases, that I could throw away without being financially traumatized. When I looked at the primer pockets, they were bowed up in the center, and a pocket cutter would start to cut right around the flash hole. Are yours that way?

On another matter...
I always bump back from the longest shoulder to head dimension that a case can reach after several firings, not from the measurement of a case that was fireformed only. Due to spring back it takes more than one stout load firing to get there. I will agree with the previous poster that a click at the top of the bolt opening is not a bump issue, but likely a mismatch between the size of the die and the chamber in the area just above the head of the case. It this is a newly ordered die, for the same chamber as brass was sent from, Lynwood will likely swap dies for a smaller one. If this is not the same chamber as the die was bought for, you have an example of why owning your own reamer is a good idea.

Also, I would agree that if this is the dumbest thing that you have ever done, you are smarter or luckier than most, including me.:D
 
Stop bottoming out the linkage and you can catch this sort of stuff. Contrary to popular belief there's no gain to be had in "pressuring up the linkage" or "rolling it over" anyway.

In My opinion

:)

al
 
I think you're right...

The bolt clicking at the top is a case diameter problem. However I did forget to mention that the bolt closed with some resistance on the last firing.
As far as pressure goes, the last 100 were fired with either 27.5 gr of VV 133 and a 98 gr Ultra @ .005 off of touching the lands or 29.2 gr. of new 8208 same other setup. Primers were neither flattened (at all) or cratered, neither was their any brass flow at the bolt face. Although these are not difinitive proof, they are very good, logical evidence of the loads not being too hot.
Secondly primers seated very well into this brass the first three times it was fired!
So, I'm convinced that the brass was good and now it's not. That leaves very few options for it's demise.
I think I need to call Lynwood Harrel and see just how much of the allthread I can turn off where the pin goe into it, or maybe a longer pin would be the answer...or just manually depriming and disposing of the decapping rod altogether.
 
Boyd Allen said:
One time I assumed that the replacement rod for my FL die (same brand as yours) should stick up the same amount as the one that it replaced, and I did not notice that the rod was running into the bottoms of the cases I was sizing. Luckily, it only ruined a dozen well used cases, that I could throw away without being financially traumatized. When I looked at the primer pockets, they were bowed up in the center, and a pocket cutter would start to cut right around the flash hole. Are yours that way?

On another matter...
I always bump back from the longest shoulder to head dimension that a case can reach after several firings, not from the measurement of a case that was fireformed only. Due to spring back it takes more than one stout load firing to get there. I will agree with the previous poster that a click at the top of the bolt opening is not a bump issue, but likely a mismatch between the size of the die and the chamber in the area just above the head of the case. It this is a newly ordered die, for the same chamber as brass was sent from, Lynwood will likely swap dies for a smaller one. If this is not the same chamber as the die was bought for, you have an example of why owning your own reamer is a good idea.

Also, I would agree that if this is the dumbest thing that you have ever done, you are smarter or luckier than most, including me.:D
Click to expand...

Yes, my primer pockets are bowed up in the middle, probably to the tune of about .030.
Yes, this is a new die. I ordered it on the advice of several that have been helping me in this new BR adventure. It is a #3 Harrels and Lynwood sent it to me after I sent him 3 several times fired brass from my rifle...
Maybe not the dumbest thing, but I should have known better when that primer wasn't comming all the way out after several adjustments of the decapping rod.
 
Thats nothin

If this is the dumbest thing you ever do in Benchrest you will be very fortunate! You will do well in this sport as you are not afraid to fess-up to mistakes, most would just go find a bush to hide under! Welcome MarkR:)
 
That's not that Bad

MarkR said:
Well, how do I start? O.K., yesterday evening I started getting my 100 6PPC brass ready to load. They have been fired 2 times each not including the fireforming that I did without bullets (powder and wax). I've got my new Harrels FL die in hand and need to set it up to bump the shoulder back about
.001 because I had a click at the top of the bolt stroke on almost all of these after the last firing. I go about setting the die up, inching it down till I had about .001 setback using the bump gauge. All of this time I noticed that I had to keep adjusting the primer punch because it wasn't nearly getting the primer out of the case...(I know, I should have deprimed seperately :mad:)...sooooo at any rate I keep adjusting the rod down till the primer falls out at the bottom of the stroke, every thing cool, I finish the 100 brass and go ahead and do the 30 that came with the rifle as well since I've put a Leupold comp 45 on it this week and it will need sighting in, I'll use the older brass for that, every thing is peachy so far. I get out my priming tool and get ready to prime my brass, The first one was a little hard to seat fully, no..., a lot hard to seat enough so that I can slide the brass out of the shellholder, I'm stunned, but hard headed, so I stick another piece of brass into the priming tool and seat another primer...this one will not go in far enough either so I finally put enough force on the priming tool so that I can get the piece of brass out. I'm really scratching my balding head at this point and my faithful English Bulldog Chopper knows that something is amis at this point so he gets up and vacates my space...:eek:
Sooooo, I go out to the shop for a depth mike to see whats going on here and lo and behold, all of my primer pockets are about .092 deep. I guess many of you here have figured this out by now and the only thing that I can figure is that while adjusting the decapping rod (which I shouldn't have been doing in the first place because I should have manually deprimed the brass first.....:mad:....I have over adjusted the depriming rod and while resizing the brass, I pushed the base of the primer pocket back as well. Thats the only thing that my pea brain can come up with at this point. I suspect that I've ruined all of my brass at this point, not that I can't replace it, I just don't think that I can relace it by next weekend so I can go to a match...WOW, I cant believe that with all the years of reloading experience that I have...I did something this stupid!
Any and all suggestions and help would be appreciated at this point.
Thanks
Mark
Click to expand...

I remember a time at Visalia when a guy did the same thing and kept reaming the primer pockets down every time he shot the cases.... until one had a primer diameter hole all the way through the base!
 
Engrbill said:
I remember a time at Visalia when a guy did the same thing and kept reaming the primer pockets down every time he shot the cases.... until one had a primer diameter hole all the way through the base!
Click to expand...

That right there is some funny stuff! Once I measure the primer pocket depth at .092, I knew it was game, set and match! :D
Mark
 
This is something i have never even thought about or even knew could happen. It makes me wonder a bit. I have a Sinclair fixed ppc/BR primer pocket reamer tool that i bought about 1 month ago from sinclairs. I have been using it regularly but it doesnt always completely cut the pocket bottom. It seems that some of the primer pockets are already lower than my fixed cutter can cut. However after a firing or two i have noticed that the tool will finish cutting all the way down, or nice and flush. I figured it had something to do with firing the brass a couple times ( strech). Now i wonder if im doing the same thing but just slightly? I have been told my tool is junk by a couple fellow shooters but it seems to work just fine about 85% of the time. Not to hijack this thread, but do some of you more experienced shooters have any advise or thoughts on this matter? Man there is a lot to learn about this game. The brass i have been prepping in this manner seems to be shooting just fine. I shot some really small groups today. Lee
 
skeetlee said:
This is something i have never even thought about or even knew could happen. It makes me wonder a bit. I have a Sinclair fixed ppc/BR primer pocket reamer tool that i bought about 1 month ago from sinclairs. I have been using it regularly but it doesnt always completely cut the pocket bottom. It seems that some of the primer pockets are already lower than my fixed cutter can cut. However after a firing or two i have noticed that the tool will finish cutting all the way down, or nice and flush. I figured it had something to do with firing the brass a couple times ( strech). Now i wonder if im doing the same thing but just slightly? I have been told my tool is junk by a couple fellow shooters but it seems to work just fine about 85% of the time. Not to hijack this thread, but do some of you more experienced shooters have any advise or thoughts on this matter? Man there is a lot to learn about this game. The brass i have been prepping in this manner seems to be shooting just fine. I shot some really small groups today. Lee
Click to expand...


Lee,
fwiw, I use the same tool you do and after 60+ firings (hot,mild, and inbetween) the pockets just barely clean up. All it really does is clean out the crud and re-square the edges. I have a feeling Lapua wants it that way so that the primers can be slightly crush seated below flush.
 
goodgrouper said:
Lee,
fwiw, I use the same tool you do and after 60+ firings (hot,mild, and inbetween) the pockets just barely clean up. All it really does is clean out the crud and re-square the edges. I have a feeling Lapua wants it that way so that the primers can be slightly crush seated below flush.
Click to expand...

Lapua probably doesn't know crap about what primer pockets should be for the 220 Russian. They make it the depth we ask for when we ask for the flash holes to be enlarged from 1.5 mm (0.060") to 1/16" (0.0625") a few years ago. It is sized for the commonly used Fed 205/205GM.

I'm not sure yet that MarkR moved the pocket base with the decapping rod. Sometimes things are not as they first appear.
 
Mark.
Go with Good grouper and Boyd Allen. You can save this brass.
Boyd helped me out. :)
I have the # 3. Your loads are mild.
Go in the trash. Get them out.
I have some brass. I was told 50-60 loads. For an old barrel. Pockets are deep. Can barely read the head stamp. Necks look okay. I need 19 pcs. of brass to try something or to fill out the box for a score shoot. I use the them.
I think, I took them to my first Super Shoot. Never know when you will need a back up.

And I was lucky to have them. My first NBRSA Tournament. Sunday afternoon. Too busy talking.....Forgot the primers...Then I forget the powder. Same set of brass. 3 min. into the . Where the bang!!!!!!
But, I had that back up brass. Ran back to my bench. Grab the box.
Couple sighter. Nice group. With REALLY old brass. :)
Oh, Yea. Too busy talking......:eek:
 
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