Matches & Rifle ownership

Shooting matches in general and the relationship to rifle ownership.

I have owned firearms for over fifty years but only recently been taking part in shooting matches. Looking at all of the differing rules governing equipment and reading the opinions of others on the subject caused me to think about the underlying philosophy in these two related pursuits. It seems to me that some own rifles to compete in matches and others compete in matches so as to use their rifles. Much like owning firearms and hunting. It’s where the primary focus is placed. Understanding this won’t resolve disputes, but may make understanding the disputes easier.

To those whose focus is primarily the match, the rules come first and all else must fall in line with the rules. Those of us who shot IPSEC and IDPA saw the rules bring about equipment races that had pistols, holsters and ammunition little resembling anything actually carried in real life. In Rimfire rifle matches you must first decide which governing body’s matches you intend to shoot in, then choose your rifle in accordance with those rules. How much can the rifle weigh, what power scope is allowed, what trigger weight is required etc.

To those whose focus is on owning a firearm, the enjoyment is enhanced by using it, whether to plink, attend matches or hunt. And for the majority of folks, there are limits to how many firearms we own. Yes, I know, that is very sad.

Nobody has yet to develop a handicap system to this conflict. But, it could be done. It is done in other pursuits. Sailboat races allow all boats to compete but rate each boat based on factors affecting performance such as waterline length etc. One way to develop a rating for differing rifles would be to take a group of very good shooters on a range with each using a different rifle. Different in the shapes and forms that commonly exist. Varieties would be differing weights, scope powers, trigger weights etc. Shoot a few targets, mix up the shooters and rifles and do it again and repeat until each shooter had a turn with each differing rifle under the same conditions for as many targets and over as many days as is deemed sufficient to draw up the rating system. My guess is you could probably do this with existing data looking at IR 50/50 scores contrasting differing classes and with a sufficiently large number to work with, have pretty good results. Expand this by experience and allow ongoing modifications to the handicap rating as required. This would allow the person with a primary interest in owning a rifle to enjoy using it in more matches while still allowing those with a primary interest in the matches to have their competition.

Will this happen ? I doubt it. All organizations tend to focus on themselves to the exclusion of competing organizations. They tend to want to continue, even if their underlying reason for existing has vanished. The Mafia is one example that comes to mind as a strong and secret organization whose purpose was to protect the local population from what ever overbearing, exploitive and abusive power ruled the land. Once the threats were removed, the organization remained, but on it’s own, found a new reason to continue. Individually, we enjoy power and status from our positions within an organization and it’s against human nature to yield. So I am not optimistic about change. But as I had these thoughts, wanted to share them.

Respectfully submitted, David Lee Valdina
 
Change?

Benchrest shooting is not broken so I don't really see any reason to try and fix it.
Maybe when Obama is elected that will be included in his changes.:):)
Gene
 
rules

First thank you for your opinion. Hope this reply is not contrite. It is not intended to be so. I think each organizations has rules which allow competitors to choose which rifle to shoot from a sporter class to shoot what you brought. Some have more rules than others but each tried to have enough rules to not leave it to subjective qualifications for each rifle but specific. The rifles used in these competitions are similar to the cars used in NASCAR. Indeed they are rifles but not like the one you use in everday hunting or plinking, just as in NASCAR cars are not the Fords or Chevys that you drive to work and around town each day or buy at the local dealership. There are many ranges where you can enjoy shooting against similar guns. If you want to compete agaist these "custom guns" you can. You will still enjoy yourself if shooting is your objective. But if you want to compete thats different. I doubt that you would want to enter you new Cobra Mustang in a NASCAR event.
 
It Is What It Is.......

David, This is rimfire br. There is no handicap system just as there is no handicap system in NHRA Top Fuel or NASCAR.

Joe Haller has a rimfire game that would fit your handicap system, why reinvent the wheel? There is a rimfire br game for everyone.

And some people do collect rifles and shoot rimfire br.,it is really pretty common for br shooters to collect rifles.
 
Reply to J. Pappas...

J. Pappas writes: "There is a rimfire br game for everyone." and that is correct. The problem is that these choices are often hundreds or thousands of miles from where you might live. That may be excluding lots of shooters. I fully realize this board is made up of shooters conforming to the existing rules. But those rules were not handed down thousands of years ago and written in stone. Rules are always subject to thought and revision. I wanted to shed some light on the psychology if you will of the thought process that takes place. I do not tell "you" to make a change. I think it healthy if we realize what drives us and what our neutral standards are. Make the thinking as transparent as possible, invite input etc. I can live with either system as I am blessed with multiple rifles and can drive long distances. But not everyone is so blessed and some yearn to be able to be included, whether this rimfire benchrest, 3 position CMP, silhouette etc.
 
David

David, many of the people on this forum went to the board of the range they shot at and started rimfire br matches. The different organizations reflect what the people in each area wanted to shoot.That why there are many different organizations and rules around the country. We own guns that fit the rules of the organization in our area. You are right, the rules were not handed down a thousand years ago, but most of us like the rules of the game we shoot. There are no sporter rifles shot in the area I live in and no interest for them. Yet in the southeast part of the country they are very popular. Many of us are like you we have shot for 50 years or more.
 
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Will this happen ? I doubt it. All organizations tend to focus on themselves to the exclusion of competing organizations. They tend to want to continue said:
This is basically the same old "level playing field" argument that I've heard for years. You're correct, most organizations resist change, because they were conceived to fulfill a specific demand. What you fail to mention, is that organizations rarely change to conform to the ideas and values of someone who wants significant change for their advantage, whether that advantage be competitive or financial. Yes, the BR game is an equipment race and many get left in the dust. Personally, I like the equipment race and it's one of the reasons I choose to compete in ARA. If it ever comes to point that there are a multitude of complicating handicaps (Shades of BR-50), then it's time for me to quit. However, you would assume that if your ideas are correct, or at least "best practice", then you would be able to find a large following of like-minded people. Then you could start your organization to fulfill the demand that you preceive. That's what we need is another rimfire BR game. But, if the only people it attracts are those who are interested in leveling the playing field, it would bring no harm to existing games and may even improve their participation as people move up to a higher level.
 
What did Col Jeff Cooper say about BR??

I think it was something like ....not much skill involved, just an equip race.

Many dont/wont like this but is it true??

Any leveling is shot down.
 
Langec..

What did Col Jeff Cooper say about BR??

I think it was something like ....not much skill involved, just an equip race.

Many dont/wont like this but is it true??

Any leveling is shot down.

Langec, Jeff Cooper was a great Marine and a awesome pistol shooter, I also think he shot in less benchrest matches than you have. Not Much Skill Involved? Yep, you sure know alot about benchrest.
 
What did Col Jeff Cooper say about BR??

I think it was something like ....not much skill involved, just an equip race.

Many dont/wont like this but is it true??

Any leveling is shot down.

I used to think this until I actually got behind a rifle and started shooting IR 50/50 practice targets.

The way I look at it, everyone who shoots has their own skill level. Some aren't very skilled, and some are quite skilled. Their rifle will only help display their skills. For example, you could be one of the best BR shooters ever, having the ability to aim right where the bullet needs to be with every shot in all conditions. But, if your rifle isn't as accurate as you are, your scores will be held back by the rifle. Along the same lines, someone could be shooting a Calfee or Myers rifle (or whichever custom builder you want) and have mediocre scores because they don't possess BR shooting skills like the better shooter and don't know how to shoot X's out.


If everyone was at the same skill level, maybe equipment would level the playing field. However, I'm going to disagree with you and the late Gen. Cooper and say that BR shooting skills play a giant part in high scores.

Back to the main topic, I think there are plenty of leagues to shoot in for different shooters and different rifles. If it comes to it, check out the BR matches on RimfireCentral and shoot those.
 
A wise man once said "JUST SHUT UP AND SHOOT" enjoy the game and quit worrying about the small things, you will enjoy it more.:rolleyes:;)

If you want to be one of the "top shooters" buy the best and lern how to use it.
 
Pappa you got it right-I dont know much about BR shooting. Trying to pick up a little more everytime I go out.

I was quoting the Col and his 'feelings' about BR. How much BR he did-I suspect very little cause he thought much more of 3 position type shooting.
 
Agree with Beau 100%.

If you build it, will they come? Only one way to find out.

You may also have a few problems when it comes to the current organizations by basically stating: "I'm new to this, and I think we should change the rules."
 
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Shoot or don't shoot, but don't whine

This subject has to come about every year or so.

Anyways, down here in San Diego, we have kinda allowed for the people that want to shoot competitively, but yet not spend the thousands of dollars. What we do is we shoot ARA, but we divide into two divisions (for our club). We have the people with their custom guns, tuners and one piece rests, but then we also have people that have their stock 10/22 or Copper or similar. We place them in a "Sporter" category where they have to shoot off two piece rest and have no tuner, they can upgrade the trigger and barrel. So at the end of the day, those shooting in the "Sporter" category get an award for "High Sporter", but they are also shooting against all the others at the range and are still submitted to the ARA office for national ranking.

This is what we do to attract other shooters and it works. We average 8 shooters each match with range a that has only 9 benches.

Bill
 
Back again to Mr. Pappas

Mr. Pappas writes: "David,thanks again for sharing your thoughts with us. I especially like the sentence where you compare us to the Mafia. Are you sure you want to shoot with us? I don't think you quite understand rimfire br. More than a few people on this board spent their own money and time to build benches and ranges and even organizations to shoot rimfire br. All rimfire organizations have procedures to change rules. It might be better if you shot some matches before you make your suggestions."

To this I reply: I did not compare you to the Mafia, I used that as an example of organizations which continue to exist after the reason for their being was long gone. I have shot some matches and have enjoyed them. I also stated I was able to participate, but am aware that others want to and can't. So I thoughtfully explored the subject. You seem to want to be negative and argumentative. Is it so difficult to discuss an issue without personalizing and attacking me ? Is your ego so small that you can't abide any suggestions outside the box without feeling threatened ?
 
David,

Where are you getting this idea: "which continue to exist after the reason for their being was long gone. "

This is RBA's mission statement: RBA was designed by rimfire benchrest shooters, for rimfire benchrest shooters. Our goal is to enjoy the fellowship of shooters from across the country as well as test our skills against other countries around the world.

I think they are right on the mark with what's happening today.

Where did you get this..:"All organizations tend to focus on themselves to the exclusion of competing organizations."

This above is totally wrong.

RBA, ARA, IR 50/50, and ARG all have an unlimited class, meaning you can shoot any rimfire .22lr rifle in it. You can shoot in all four national organizations with a single gun, without any restrictions, in unlimited class. It don't get more open than that.

Further, a IR 50/50 sporter is also legal for RBA and ARG. There are some slight differences in the RBA sporter, but you can just follow IR 50/50 rules and be safe for all organizations.

What are you talking about?:confused: Do you know what you are talking about?

I think the glass is half full, not half empty.
 
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David,

That's a fair question. Where does the "which continue to exist after the reason for their being was long gone. " come into play?

My response is not a personal attack on you but this idea of a "level playing field" comes up ever so often. It's usually put forth by someone who does not want to make the finanicial investment in BR equipment that has been made and continues to be made by most of the current participants. In other words "I want to play your game, but I don't want to be as financially committed so change the rules to suit me." It sometimes sounds good in theory, but most of the current participants are looking for ultimate accuracy and, at least to a degree, enjoy the equipment race. You pretty much said the same thing in your first post where you state (paraphrased) that some people shoot to own the guns and some own the guns to shoot. I don't think very many current participants in the major venues would shoot a leveled game with limitations and handicaps. At least, most would not shoot it for long. However, there does seem to be enough interest outside the current venues in such a game that you would probably be able to get good participation. Don't try to change the existing rules to fit your purpose; define your purpose and organize the game of your dreams.
 
Every form of competitive shooting, racing I have been in has been an equipment race. That is just the nature of competing. I dont think that anyone is trying to tell you they dont want others joining in, I think it would be great to have more shooters. The simple fact is, if you put limitations on equipment, "gamesmen" will find a way to push that rule and hence drive up the price. Dont believe me, look at the sporter classes. Those were intended to allow factory type rifles to compete but have you checked the price on a good sporter class gun lately?

Now on a local level, I believe that "outlaw" (dont like the term but it is what people use) classes and matches can and do work. But without a national organization to step up to, the good that comes from it might not be fully realized. Think of it this way, the next ARA national champion might just be shooting at a local level, but because he/she does not have access to a sanctioned ARA match we will never have the chance to know.

As far as handicapping, how fair is it to the guy that saves his money and gets his equipment to shoot at the highest level he can, only to be beaten by a handicap? Then the deal becomes, why worry about achieving ultimate accuracy (that is what BR is all about) when you can shoot something less with a handicap and win????
 
The interesting thing about handicaps is how the market moves to exploit it. Look at BR-50 and the weight handicap. That pretty much gave rise to the Calfee XP as a benchrest pistol. You could get a 5-6% increase in your score even though you were shooting one of the most accurate firearms in the game. The same would happen with any other handicap system. As Dale said, "gamesmen" will push the rules to their advantage.
 
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