H
Husky Hummel
Guest
Who out there owns a 50x March w 1/8th dot? What do u think of it?
Jim Borden
New member
Love it
I have 2 of them. They are a little cloudy compared to the Leupolds and Nightforces. They seem to hold POI so far. The other March scopes are very clear. I am not sure why the 50's are a little cloudy. I have heard others say the same and have looked at them and they have the same image quality. They are in line with the Weavers in the clarity. Very usable, but not what I would expect in a $2000+ fixed power scope.
Husky at the Super Shoot, last year. Ian Kelbly ask all the March scope shooters to come out for a photo op. There were about 300 people out there.
I was shocked. I think, they had to back up to get everyone in the photo.
But, I noticed something else. Most of these guys have won a lot of wood......
I was shocked. I think, they had to back up to get everyone in the photo.
But, I noticed something else. Most of these guys have won a lot of wood......
BlackwellADB
Al Blackwell
I dunno !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have 2 50X HR Marches and they are crystal clear to me. I replaced 2 45X target Leupolds with them and find the Marches superior. I also have 2 36-55s and an 8-80 and think they are as good as you can get too. To say they compare to a Weaver is like saying a Hyundai drives like a Porsche because they both have 4 wheels.
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Joel Pendergraft had a 50x March on his score rifle, and let me shoot it a time or two. I found the clarity not as good as my Leupold Competition 45X, and I'd agree it was about like a Weaver. While Joel offered no comment, he did sell it . . .
Having said that, I have a Nightforce 12-42 that is not as clear as others I have seen/used. There is some variation in all scopes.
Finally, clarity is not the most important thing in a competition scope; holding POI is.
FWIW
Having said that, I have a Nightforce 12-42 that is not as clear as others I have seen/used. There is some variation in all scopes.
Finally, clarity is not the most important thing in a competition scope; holding POI is.
FWIW
Fergus Bailey
New member
I had a fixed 50 March and it was very good if conditions were not too bright, but the brighter it got, the less I liked it. Interestingly, a member of the US WBC team in South Africa commented that he had never had a problem with his 50 power March in the US, but in SA he switched to a 40 power march after about 1 target at 200 yards.
I have since gone to several of the 36-55 EPS and cant say enough good things about this scope.
I have since gone to several of the 36-55 EPS and cant say enough good things about this scope.
M
Mark2
Guest
Personally I have 5 Rolls Royces, 2 Bentleys and Lamborghini LM002 Estate but I usually drive my Yugo to help save the planet and to not be too showy.
how does a Yugo "save the planet?"
M
Mark2
Guest
Good Lord man, don't you know nutthin?
James A. Kelbly
New member
We have found alot of guys that have bought the March scopes and the fixed scope is the worst for the CUSTOMER not to get the scope clear.
Here is a good example. A customer from France complained that he and his shooting buddies could not get his 40x March clear, I told him to bring to Super Shoot. He did. I gave the scope to Turk Takano and he gave it back to me in less than a hour and told me he adjusted the scope and got it clear in less than 5 minutes. I knew the customer would not believe me, so I put the scope on our March scope display at the range officers stand . Many people looked thru it, no problem. Now customer from France ask me about his scope so I asked if he looked thru scope on stand and he said he did and that he wished his scope looked that good. I then told him it was his, he was amazed as he worked many times to get clear and no luck. He is now very happy customer.
Another example is my father never got his scopes clear(50X) till he was at Lou Murdica's tunnel and this was two years after he got the scopes.
So what I am saying is if you have a March scope and it is not clear, first READ THE INSTRUCTIONS on how to focus scope properly, then follow the instructions and work with the scope. Odds are in your favor that the scope is perfect-YOU are not.
Jim
Here is a good example. A customer from France complained that he and his shooting buddies could not get his 40x March clear, I told him to bring to Super Shoot. He did. I gave the scope to Turk Takano and he gave it back to me in less than a hour and told me he adjusted the scope and got it clear in less than 5 minutes. I knew the customer would not believe me, so I put the scope on our March scope display at the range officers stand . Many people looked thru it, no problem. Now customer from France ask me about his scope so I asked if he looked thru scope on stand and he said he did and that he wished his scope looked that good. I then told him it was his, he was amazed as he worked many times to get clear and no luck. He is now very happy customer.
Another example is my father never got his scopes clear(50X) till he was at Lou Murdica's tunnel and this was two years after he got the scopes.
So what I am saying is if you have a March scope and it is not clear, first READ THE INSTRUCTIONS on how to focus scope properly, then follow the instructions and work with the scope. Odds are in your favor that the scope is perfect-YOU are not.
Jim
Jim.
I read the instructions and it seems to be like most scopes. I focused the eyepiece until the reticle was clear. I then focus the target and parallax knob for best focus. I then check the parallax. If there is parallax I readjust the eyepiece slightly trying not to unfocus the reticle and then refocus the side knob and recheck. Basically, optimizing focus and parallax on the target and still having the reticle clear enough.
I have designed and packaged optics for almost 25 years now. The eyepiece and side focus are the only things available to change focus on this type of scope (Leu 45 too). What am I missing on this procedure?? It honestly seems to me the color correction inherent in the optical design is a little off. Like I said above. They seem to hold POI, but are a little cloudy in my opinion. They are still a very usable scope but not as clear as the Leu 45. I still have and use 2 March scopes for what its worth. I have more confidence in the POI.
I read the instructions and it seems to be like most scopes. I focused the eyepiece until the reticle was clear. I then focus the target and parallax knob for best focus. I then check the parallax. If there is parallax I readjust the eyepiece slightly trying not to unfocus the reticle and then refocus the side knob and recheck. Basically, optimizing focus and parallax on the target and still having the reticle clear enough.
I have designed and packaged optics for almost 25 years now. The eyepiece and side focus are the only things available to change focus on this type of scope (Leu 45 too). What am I missing on this procedure?? It honestly seems to me the color correction inherent in the optical design is a little off. Like I said above. They seem to hold POI, but are a little cloudy in my opinion. They are still a very usable scope but not as clear as the Leu 45. I still have and use 2 March scopes for what its worth. I have more confidence in the POI.
When is the last time you went to have your eyes checked? I was having a lot of problems for about 1 1/2 years to find out that I had Catrarcts in my left eye and a fast moving one in my right. It is common that when we reach our middle 40's to start needing glasses to read etc. After the the removeal of the Catraracts (I went with mono vision)(distance left eye, close up for right eye) now I do not need glasses for distance or to read. I point here is we all ASSUME that we have problems with equipment but in reality most of our problems our US.
Had them checked last year. I need 1.25 reading glasses for reading, have 20/20 at anything over a few feet. I really have no axe to grind on this at all. I have Nightforces, IOR, Leu, Sightrons, Weavers etc. The IOR is very clear, the Leu is very clear, the Sightron is a little cloudy as is the Weavers. The March is about like that. I am not bad mouthing the scope. A shooter asked my opinion and I gave it.
We talked about this at the range this weekend during our match. Almost everyone there had the same comment about the 50X scope. In my prior life I packaged optical systems for both visible and infrared. I put prototype systems together that needed alignment that only I could pull off. I understand how optics work about as well any anyone I know and can usually get the most out of them in setup and alignment. High power scopes are hard to do. The larger the objective and higher the mag, the harder it is to get astigmatism and color correction right. There is some astigmatism in this system and they are telling us that right in the box. That fancy little aperture stop when installed gives you not only have a deeper field of focus, but a little bit clearer image too. That clear image change is astigmatism being fixed by not using the edge of the lenses. Most scope designs try to minimize number of elements for cost and weight. Most glass has an index of refraction that varies from red to blue. ED glass has less, but still has it. You have to adjust powers from lens to lens with different glasses to correct for it. Cemented doublets are used in high end optical systems to help this out, but for a scope they are heavy. Like I said, it is tough with high power scopes. I still believe the inherent design has some color correction issues with it. That is what they look like when they do. If you filter some colors out, it gets clearer. Kind of like the old blue blocker sunglasses. The lens in your eye doesnt focus blue light as well and these take it out and the imager looks clearer. Actually, all that is happening is that less energy is getting to your eye, and the clipped off amount is what was screwing up the clarity. The scope does the same thing. Remove some of the wavelengths and the clarity is better. That shows color issues in the design.
We talked about this at the range this weekend during our match. Almost everyone there had the same comment about the 50X scope. In my prior life I packaged optical systems for both visible and infrared. I put prototype systems together that needed alignment that only I could pull off. I understand how optics work about as well any anyone I know and can usually get the most out of them in setup and alignment. High power scopes are hard to do. The larger the objective and higher the mag, the harder it is to get astigmatism and color correction right. There is some astigmatism in this system and they are telling us that right in the box. That fancy little aperture stop when installed gives you not only have a deeper field of focus, but a little bit clearer image too. That clear image change is astigmatism being fixed by not using the edge of the lenses. Most scope designs try to minimize number of elements for cost and weight. Most glass has an index of refraction that varies from red to blue. ED glass has less, but still has it. You have to adjust powers from lens to lens with different glasses to correct for it. Cemented doublets are used in high end optical systems to help this out, but for a scope they are heavy. Like I said, it is tough with high power scopes. I still believe the inherent design has some color correction issues with it. That is what they look like when they do. If you filter some colors out, it gets clearer. Kind of like the old blue blocker sunglasses. The lens in your eye doesnt focus blue light as well and these take it out and the imager looks clearer. Actually, all that is happening is that less energy is getting to your eye, and the clipped off amount is what was screwing up the clarity. The scope does the same thing. Remove some of the wavelengths and the clarity is better. That shows color issues in the design.
M
mike in co
Guest
i'll back up tom's statement. i had to almost give up shooting last year my cataracs were so bad. had both eyes done early this year, and life is better( VA BENEFIT). scope shooting is fine and iron sight will be better when i get glasses that are correct for the focus distance involved.
mike in co
mike in co
Boyd Allen
Active member
Jerry,
It has always seemed to me that some of my friends' high power, variable, Burris scopes had a slight yellow cast. I wonder if this was done for the reason that you mentioned. What would happen if a very high quality very light yellow filter was put at the front or back of one of these 50X Marchs ? In the past there was an article in an old B&W PS in which the author claimed that by using a colored filter, that he could significantly improve visual acuity through a rifle scope. I believe that in his case the lens, that he made the claim for, was more of a rose color. I was thinking that because I seem to remember that the eye is most sensitive to light yellow, that putting that color of a filter somewhere in the system might give that blue blocker effect, reducing the circle of confusion, at the retina, while causing the least darkening of the image. For target shooting, it seems to me that sharpness is much more important than absolute color fidelity.
Boyd
It has always seemed to me that some of my friends' high power, variable, Burris scopes had a slight yellow cast. I wonder if this was done for the reason that you mentioned. What would happen if a very high quality very light yellow filter was put at the front or back of one of these 50X Marchs ? In the past there was an article in an old B&W PS in which the author claimed that by using a colored filter, that he could significantly improve visual acuity through a rifle scope. I believe that in his case the lens, that he made the claim for, was more of a rose color. I was thinking that because I seem to remember that the eye is most sensitive to light yellow, that putting that color of a filter somewhere in the system might give that blue blocker effect, reducing the circle of confusion, at the retina, while causing the least darkening of the image. For target shooting, it seems to me that sharpness is much more important than absolute color fidelity.
Boyd
Filters are a double edge sword. IF there is plenty of energy and color issues in the system, a filter can help. The color spectrum is the old ROYGBIV if that sounds familiar. White light has all of them and the colors go red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo and violet (you can see these in a rainbow or prism). If you filter the low wavelength UV and blues out, you get a yellow to rose colored hue. Its not intuitive, but a red filter does not filter out the red, it actually filters everything else out so the red is whats left, hence the yellow hue. You lose overall brightness and hopefully gain clarity. It may be a good trade if you have the above situation with extra energy. It would be easier to wear the yellow shooting glasses then getting the filter most likely though. I have done that some, but lots of times with a 52mm objective and 50X mag, you only have a small exit pupil and the loss in brightness (and resolution with it) are not real desirable. The exit pupil that hits your eye is only 1mm (52 / 50) so there is really not much energy to throw away. Most times even an a bright day your pupil is larger than that.
March Scope Fiasco
Let me begin by saying I am no top notch shooter and I don't know a thing about the mechanics of optics, but I do know what I see.
As I like to see things for myself rather than rely on the opinions of others, ordered a March EP 36x55 early in 2009. Shortly before the Group Nationals in August 2009 I received the scope.
I was very anxious to try it; so after mounting, went directly to the range. The first thing I noticed was I couldn't get a very sharp focus (Not paralex). As I tried to fine tune the focus the color around the rings of the target changed from black to a blurry rust color.
After shooting and fooling with it for several days and not noticing any improvement in POI, phoned Jim Kelbly and explained my findings to him. Jim suggested I return the scope to him for inspection. After he examined the scope reported he felt there was something wrong and said he would returned it to Japan for me.
In a month or so the scope was returned directly to me with a letter saying "The scope was within tolerence, however, the objective lens was replaced" (Didn't keep the paperwork, darn). Now isn't that somewhat of a oxymoron?????
I tried the returne scope and although there was some improvement it wasn't accecptable to me considering the cost of the unit.
Jim was gracious enough to replace it with a second EP, which I also found to be unaccecptable. I finally tried a straight 50x which was the best of the 3, but still not my cup of tea and as I saw no improvement in POI felt the March was not for me.
Jim Kelbly was such a gentelman that her returned my money and I stayed with the Leupold's I had.
(Unfortunately, I did not keep the serial numbers of any of the (3) scopes).
Since that time and at every opportunity look through other shooters Marches out of curosity. As of this date have not seen one that floats my boat.
Where is the point of diminished return in this game?????
I supose I'm somewhat annal, however, thats my story and I'm sticking to it.
Let me begin by saying I am no top notch shooter and I don't know a thing about the mechanics of optics, but I do know what I see.
As I like to see things for myself rather than rely on the opinions of others, ordered a March EP 36x55 early in 2009. Shortly before the Group Nationals in August 2009 I received the scope.
I was very anxious to try it; so after mounting, went directly to the range. The first thing I noticed was I couldn't get a very sharp focus (Not paralex). As I tried to fine tune the focus the color around the rings of the target changed from black to a blurry rust color.
After shooting and fooling with it for several days and not noticing any improvement in POI, phoned Jim Kelbly and explained my findings to him. Jim suggested I return the scope to him for inspection. After he examined the scope reported he felt there was something wrong and said he would returned it to Japan for me.
In a month or so the scope was returned directly to me with a letter saying "The scope was within tolerence, however, the objective lens was replaced" (Didn't keep the paperwork, darn). Now isn't that somewhat of a oxymoron?????
I tried the returne scope and although there was some improvement it wasn't accecptable to me considering the cost of the unit.
Jim was gracious enough to replace it with a second EP, which I also found to be unaccecptable. I finally tried a straight 50x which was the best of the 3, but still not my cup of tea and as I saw no improvement in POI felt the March was not for me.
Jim Kelbly was such a gentelman that her returned my money and I stayed with the Leupold's I had.
(Unfortunately, I did not keep the serial numbers of any of the (3) scopes).
Since that time and at every opportunity look through other shooters Marches out of curosity. As of this date have not seen one that floats my boat.
Where is the point of diminished return in this game?????
I supose I'm somewhat annal, however, thats my story and I'm sticking to it.
Shinny,
You say twice in your post that you did not notice or see any "improvement in POI." Can you explain what you mean? What "improvement in POI" are you looking for?
If there is a scope out there that will make bullets impact closer together I should would be interested...
Thanks,
Ryan