Machining of Actions and Barrels

M

Mirage416

New member
Right now, I am beginning college to learn the art of machine work. I have decided that I want to make firearm actions, and possibly work with barrels as well. For now, let's merely focus on the final goal being actions. I would begin my venture by starting with simple designs on items such as muzzle brakes, and progress towards actions after some years down the road. $20,000 total is going to be spent on a CNC machine, and CNC lathe very soon. I am in charge of finding the machines which need to be purchased. I believe that a large portion of that money should be spent on a CNC machine, and a smaller amount on a CNC lathe. The machines are going to sit in my shop until I slowly learn how to operate them through college.

Currently, I am clueless about the type of CNC used to create precision firearm actions. I was hoping those here that know machinery well could help direct me towards the type of machine I should be looking for to produce precision firearm actions.

Can a 3 axis CNC perform the operations for internal cuts in a receiver, or would it need to be a 5 axis or more?

I know that up-to-date CNCs use input from 3D modeling programs like Solidworks. A lot of the used machines I have found are from the early 90s or even 80s, and thus have old computers attached. Do any of those old CNCs have ways to get a design file from a new-age program like Solidworks into them, or do those older machines mostly require manual steps to be keyed in?

For an example, would it be possible something like this might produce the cuts required to make firearm actions? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320559102257&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Any guidance here would be greatly appreciated. All I have at this point is an ambition, and not much understanding of the machines.

Thanks
 
try this

I would look on the websites of custom action buildes and see what they are using maybe even call them up. Viper actions, Stolle actions from Kelbys, a new action I just recieved today is Haverkamp I will be testing he has some nice equipment. Bat actions, Surgeon actions, Hall actions, and Borden actions are a few good plcaes to start I do not know how willing they will be to share this information but I think from seeing how everyone welcomes people at matches you would have little trouble getting help. Everytime I try to buy an action I need to wait for a couple months before I can get one. Sounds like there is room for more manufacturers. and I hope all goes well for you. I am looking to start placing my company name on an action and might be buying some from you in the future so I would love to know how it goes and when you will be up and running.
 
I would wait a bit, you will in the near future be exposed firsthand to the very types of machines you are talking about. Follow JhnsonGunsmiths advice as well, a lot of folks show a lot of setups and machines in their literature and advertising, take advantage of it.
 
I own a CNC machine shop. It's way too soon to think about buying a machine when you don't really have a clear idea of what, exactly, (in terms of set-ups, and the order of the machining operations) you will be doing with it. It's tempting now because it's definitely a buyers market, but you will, most likely, buy the wrong machine, or at least one that is not optimum for what you plan to do. Programming is most often done by a stand alone computer (an ordinary PC) and CAM (computer aided machining) software system which then post processes, or writes, a program (called "G" code) your machine can run. You then download it to the machine to run your parts. If the program is too large for the memory in an older machine, which is sometimes the case, software is available for you to run the machine directly from your PC, a line of code at a time.

There are a number of CAM programs which can import part files designed with Solidworks. The CAM program allows you to plan your job, select materials, select the tools you will use, set tool paths, set feeds and speeds, and so on. You will have to become skilled at programming, skilled at just being a machinist, and because CAM programs seldom write very efficient "G" code, you must learn how to edit that too. There is awful lot to learn and before you even consider making a rifle action. On top of all that, there are quite a few extremely well made actions already out there. I'm not trying to discourage you, but you've chosen a pretty tall mountain to climb. Good luck to you.
 
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Here is the problem. Someone else is offering to fund the project. I was schooling previously for mechanical engineering, but they are offering to buy me the machines right now and get me headed towards this. I have a place to store the machines now as well.

So, what it boils down to is this. I want to capitolize on the persons offer immediately. They inherited money from a settlement, and want to invest in me. I do not want to get through some school, and then have this person tell me the cash is no longer available, or that they have spent half of it. I have a chance to acquire a great amount of funding if I get on the ball and get things started. I feel that securing the machines will lock in the deal for this partnership.

So, I know it's not the best thing to do in a normal situation. But my situation is a bit different than normal. I must really do what research I can, and get the machines purchased. I hope someone can understand the situation I am in, and why I want to jump the gun and buy these machines.
 
You need to pay close attention to the combination of software you are going to need to run complex designs and machines.

Your 20,000.00 budget will be depleted just in the software you will need to design and run 3-5 axis parts and that many axis. Unless you have a huge budget you will be better looking at 2 1/2 axis for milling and 2 for turning. 2 axis software is still 6,000.00+ and cad software is just as bad. Then comes the training, which is not included in the base price. All Cad and Cam software takes a lot of instruction to be able to make it worth your expense.

Just be careful, because it's way to easy to find a deal on a machine that you find too costly to program and operate.

Good luck.
 
Thanks. I already have Solidworks 2010 and Autodesk AutoCAD 2010.

I am paying for all of the school. So, the 20K is reserved for the machines.
 
Solidworks and Autocad are "CAD" software. 3-5 axis "CAM" software is very pricey. You will need turn and Mill , thats 2.

Why have both Solidworks and Autocad?
 
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I would spend the $20,000 on something else that would really help you. That money spent on used worn out old machines is money down the comode.
The programs he has may be pirated
Butch
 
Mirage416 said:
Here is the problem. Someone else is offering to fund the project. I was schooling previously for mechanical engineering, but they are offering to buy me the machines right now and get me headed towards this. I have a place to store the machines now as well.

So, what it boils down to is this. I want to capitolize on the persons offer immediately. They inherited money from a settlement, and want to invest in me. I do not want to get through some school, and then have this person tell me the cash is no longer available, or that they have spent half of it. I have a chance to acquire a great amount of funding if I get on the ball and get things started. I feel that securing the machines will lock in the deal for this partnership.

So, I know it's not the best thing to do in a normal situation. But my situation is a bit different than normal. I must really do what research I can, and get the machines purchased. I hope someone can understand the situation I am in, and why I want to jump the gun and buy these machines.
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I think you both have unrealistic expectations. What does this investor of yours expect from the deal? If he has nothing to show for his investment, what will he do? For a new action to succeed in the marketplace it has to be significantly better or better AND cheaper than what's already out there. Do you have a design, or at least ideas, that show potential for this? Are you an experianced shooter with a list of features you'd like to see in an action that aren't available? $20,000 will buy you, unless you know what to look for, worn out machines incapable of the repeatability you will need to produce low tolerance parts. Tooling and software could easily be double what you plan to spend on machines. I have shop full of machines and I wouldn't give a project like this a second thought.
 
I figured some fellows would find ways to bash this anyway they could. :D

What I'm trying to figure out is, how can you merely say that used machines are bad, or that used machines cannot produce firearm actions with tight tolerances? You are attempting to cover every used machine available as if you have inspected it.

Things are getting twisted, as well. It's now being talked about as if the first thing I'm going to do is jump on a machine and design a firearm action.

Do you ever wonder how these guys started, the guys making you your actions you are buying right now for benchrest? The owners and designers most likely had an ambition to do this sort of thing when they were younger. It's the same sort of ambition that exists within me. I will work towards this goal over time. It could never come immediately. I said above that I would begin designing things like muzzle brakes. Don't think that I have to design something for benchrest shooters, either. There are plenty of other opportunities out there. Look at Bohica Arms. The guy designed a merely working 50BMG upper for around $1000, and took on thousands of orders. There's niche products out there everywhere just waiting to be made by ambitious newcomers.

I'm sorry, but I really won't let some people with doubts on an internet forum end my career ambition. I was hoping people would lend some help to their own cause, but I'd hate to see it turn into help to end mine.

I love the pirated software comments. Always pesimistic when we can be I see.
 
Now might be a good time to buy a used machine,If you go that route ask a lot of questions about the machine also take some one with you that is up date on that type of machine, and knows what to look for as far a repaired pars ect.If you have not done it yet visit the Pracitcal Machinest website a lot of good information there.
 
Mirage416 said:
I figured some fellows would find ways to bash this anyway they could. :D

What I'm trying to figure out is, how can you merely say that used machines are bad, or that used machines cannot produce firearm actions with tight tolerances? You are attempting to cover every used machine available as if you have inspected it.

Things are getting twisted, as well. It's now being talked about as if the first thing I'm going to do is jump on a machine and design a firearm action.

Do you ever wonder how these guys started, the guys making you your actions you are buying right now for benchrest? The owners and designers most likely had an ambition to do this sort of thing when they were younger. It's the same sort of ambition that exists within me. I will work towards this goal over time. It could never come immediately. I said above that I would begin designing things like muzzle brakes. Don't think that I have to design something for benchrest shooters, either. There are plenty of other opportunities out there. Look at Bohica Arms. The guy designed a merely working 50BMG upper for around $1000, and took on thousands of orders. There's niche products out there everywhere just waiting to be made by ambitious newcomers.

I'm sorry, but I really won't let some people with doubts on an internet forum end my career ambition. I was hoping people would lend some help to their own cause, but I'd hate to see it turn into help to end mine.

I love the pirated software comments. Always pesimistic when we can be I see.
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I've been where you are now and ignored advice. The mistakes I made cost me much more than your entire operating budget. How much more, I'm embarrassed to say. I won't do that, you say, well, I did too. At least, before you spend any money, find out what you need. Machines, tooling and fixtures, software, etc. You will find that is probably three or four times what you have to spend. It's discouraging to find out that realizing your dream is far more complicated than you thought, but that's life. If you have a good idea and the wherewithal to make it come to fruition, by all means, go for it.
 
I know that what I'm proposing probably comes off as possibly foolish in a sense. The fact that I am coming on a firearm forum, asking for help selecting very expensive machines that I know nothing about. Then I have dreams of producing benchrest actions, but no one here knows me, so you probably assume I'm another average shooter who thinks he knows it all and can design anything, but reality will set in sooner or later and I will find out the hard way. I know, I know. ;)

Now, like I said before, I'm merely afraid to pass up an opportunity. A lot of times in life, when I have went against my better judgment and taken chances with other ideas, I have ended up surprising myself with the things I have accomplished. Many people would have lazily done nothing in some of the circumstances I have made money from. I'm to the point now where I have gained more than I have lost by gambling in situations like this. I currently run my own business, and I personally don't have much that could be tangled up by what my friend has proposed here. Yes, mostly because he has offered to fund the large portion that he has.

This is a simple friend who I have known for many years. He inherited money because he was struck by a truck while riding a motorcycle--not that it matters. Well, he came to me wanting to invest in something which could produce income. One of the things I have collected money from over the years is making my own parts on a mill, things I have designed, integrating them or designing my own items. I like to think I am mechanically inclined. I am experienced in computers and programming, physics, mathematics, electronics, and chemistry. Naturally, my mind thought of some production-oriented business. Something challenging, yet rewarding. I have wanted to design my own firearms since I was a boy, and I know that I have the mental capability to take on such a task with proper training. So I mentioned the idea of a machine shop, and he thought that would be spectacular. It's a 50/50 profit split. He invests in all of this stuff, and I use my head to operate it. If nothing works out, he own machines he can resell and looks at it this way. I own my own business, so I have time to offer to it without any sort of backlash. He owns his own business, and likewise for him, though he doesn't want to run any machinery.

So again, I'm just trying to capitalize on an opportunity here to get something funded at little expense to me. He knows it will run up over $20 grand, that was just the figure he laid down for a CNC machine and possibly a lathe squeezed in.
 
I don't understand why someone with your capabilities is even wasting your time asking for advice. Trying to give you advice was a waste.
 
Would you say that if you weren't being sarcastic?

I was asking for advice because the logical place to typically ask for this kind of advice would be a machinists forum. But a common machinist doesn't produce rifle actions. That brings my logical choice of asking for advice here, where machinists who possibly produce actions lurk. Or do they?

I don't get it. It's like I have to play some sort of game to get people to feel the right way about me to be friendly. I can't just be straightforward and get a straightforward discussion.

I wasn't trying to come off as a know-it-all if you were implying that by saying "it was a waste" by giving me advice. I was attempting to establish some form of capability towards learning how to operate machinery. I didn't know if you assumed I was Joe Schmo who works at Foot Locker or something, so I wanted to mention that I have schooled in other areas before.

And sorry if I'm coming off as rebellious towards your advice. I just feel like a lot of times, people want to beat others capabilities down on the internet. I was getting that feeling like this thread had turned towards a mindset of, "it's not possible, shut up and go home" sort of thing. I don't know. I'm just trying to communicate any misunderstandings.
 
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I know that internet discussions suffer from the lack of being able to see facial expressions, so you will have to take it on faith that I am not trying to put you off, or ridicule you. I think that you are seriously underfunded for what you have in mind, and that you may lack the experience to do an informed job of machinery acquisition. I would suggest that to acquire the level of experience needed for this project, that you find employment in a production shop, and learn how to program. There is a place for formal education, and one for OJT. Being young, bright and ambitious are not substitutes for either. (In my own case, I try to console myself that 1.5 out of 3 is better than naught.) You can achieve your goal, but I think that it will take significantly longer, and cost considerably more than you imagine. One suggestion that I hope that you take seriously it to contact some action manufacturers and inquire as to what they would consider the minimum investment in usable used machinery needed to accomplish your project, and what level of experience it would take to use that equipment, including all aspects of design and production. If, after that, you are still convinced that you can do it with the resources at your disposal, I will be very surprised. In any case, good luck.
 
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Thanks for the suggestions, Boyd.

I have been signed up for classes for the machining and autoCAD program at my college campus. My first 3 classes for that program start in about 1 month. I have a few other classes I'm taking at the same time to finish up another degree, then I will be going full-time in their machining program the next coming spring semester. I have heard that they have a fairly complete machining program, so I'm looking forward to making the most of it. I previously attended school in programming, though one of the languages I know is now somewhat outdated, that being Pascal. The other language I have worked with is Java. I never thought I was going to like programming, but it ended up being interesting for me in the end and not how I originally imagined it. I do look forward to working with the programming required to operate the machinery.

I found some information I have been reading covering the machinery coding sequences. The commands are pretty interesting to say the least. There's a lot of potential sequences and functions which I did not previously think about. It's surely a vast subject, which as I can see would take a good deal of time to become in-tune with.
 
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Mirage, I am with Boyd on the funding part, 1 good condition 3/4/5 axis cnc unit +tooling is going to eat most or all + of your previously stated amount. Then there will be your overhead - shop , 3 phase electric service ( if not all ready available it is a $ killer to get installed if available to your location) and the like. Not hammering on you just trying to point a couple items out. There are a lot of used machine tools out there, but please make a mental note of the following statement:"There is a reason why that unit is for sale, be it wear and tear, lack of replacement parts (or way over priced), outdated electronics ect."
 
Yes,
Ask for advice and if it isn't what he wants to hear, he gets pissed. You asked for it and you are getting it from a few folks that have been there. People are trying to tell you that you won't get much in the way of machinery for $20,000. Take Jerry Stiller. He is an engineer and his partner,Curtis, is a great machinest and CNC person. He started with a lot more in basic machines than you are speaking of and his tools and tooling passed $20,000 way before startup and this is not including any machine cutting tools. You need a good manual lathe and mill to build tooling, it ain't done on your $20,000 CNC. I'll bet a dollar to a donut that Jerry has more than $20,000 in just the electrical in his shop. Are you going to purchase a wire EDM to cut the raceways, pay somebody $200 a receiver to do it, or buy broaches and presses to operate them. You need surface grinders, tool grinders, tool post grinders, bench grinders and polishers. You can't do it all by yourself. You will need a knowledgeable employee. Check with Jerry, Jim Borden, John Pierce, or Nat Lambeth as to all of the Federal requirements and fees. It goes on and on and a lot of us have done similar things and wished we had had some guidance in those days. If I upset you, so be it, if it will make you step back and study this deeper.
Butch
 
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