long range rifle...post moved from benchrest forum

M

motorcyclemac

Guest
I am planning to build a rifle in the future. I have quite a parts list in my head to amount to about $4000.

The intended use for this rifle will be bench rest and hopefully if I do my part out to 1000 yards.

I am in a struggle for caliber. I want to use 6.5mm. I am thinking 6.5-08 Ackley Improved...or 6.5-284. If I go long action...should I consider 6.5-06 AI?

What says you?

Cheers
Mac.
 
Keep it simple! There is good 6.5 x 284 brass available and the cartridge just flat out works. Yes, the others do but just peruse the match results and I think you will find more 6.5 x 284's than the other 6.5's. Just a 6.5 shooters opinion:D
Rich De
 
Long range choices

Mac, it's not as set in stone as the 6ppc is for point blank benchrest but the 6.5-284 is sort of like the small block Chev of the racing world. If you build and shoot one, you can get all sorts of load and setup help. It will shorten your learning curve to go with the tried and true. After you have worn out a couple of barrels, you will have better ideas anyway.
There is not anything wrong with the other choices you have mentioned and most will serve you well. But to learn faster, the closer to a standard you stay, the more help you can get.
Joe
 
6,5-06 Improved

I have owned and shot 6,5-06 Improved. While it is a nice cartridge and should be as accurate as the other big 6,5 other things beeing equal I wasnt all that impressed with the velocity gain over the much smaller ones. I had diffyculties using loads over 3100 fps with 140 gr bullets. I tried also 6,5-57 improved (6,5mm 6Rem) and got almost the same velocity from that. Seems that 6,5-55 Swedish can launch that 140 gr bullet at over 3900 fps. Tha gain in velocity is sadly small for all the extra powder and barrel burn. If some 200-300 fps are worthvile or not is so another question each has to ansvere for himself.

BA
 
A few basics -- the parent 284 case is about the same size as a standard .30/06. It is little wonder that a 6.5/06 Ackley doesn't get much more velocity. I shoot one --or really, a 6.5/270. I shoot it because the longer neck lets me shoot a 140-grain flat base bullet, not generally available, as well as bullets with shorter shanks, like the Berger boat-tails. Another reason is the extra velocity, I can get 3,100+ with a custom 150-grain boat-tail.

What I hope shows in this is that there are good reasons for my, and others, using the 6.5 on the '06 case. If you don't have those reasons, there is no special point to it; there is no magic in the chambering. And it is far from obvious that you would have those reasons. That 140 grain bullet is not generally available. The extra velocity is not always usable. As with all rifles, esp. rifle barrels, you may not be able to get to the next "tuning window." Many, even with the 6.5/06 AI have found they cannot; the faster loads are not as accurate. Perhaps certain barrel types help; such as the Shilen ratchet rifle, or the Broughton 5C. There is some evidence, but no proof.

I make the above statements not to start an argument, but to attempt to show that one man's results may be based on conditions not generally stated, or perhaps not generally replicatable -- a certain bullet, a certain barrel.

I'd say for your first rifle, the only decision you need agonize over is the boltface. All of the cases you mention use the same boltface, as do the smaller 6mms used for longer ranges. I would skip the .260 AI, only because it has no history of winning at 1,000 yards. Notice the "no history" -- I wouldn't say "can't."

It appears the early brass issues have been resolved. The plus with the 6.5/284 is the availability of pretty good cases that don't need much forming work. Case forming rivals watching the grass grow or paint dry. You only do it if you really have to.

* * *

Another thought I'd like to stick in here is that 600 yards and 1,000 yards have more in common with shooting; 600 yards and 100-200-300 yards have more in common with chamberings. 600 yards is not long range. 6-PPCs and .30-BRs have won at 600 yards, even though you can't see your bullet holes. (the shooting part). They are not ideal, but they work. They flat don't work at 1,000. Somewhere around 800-900 yards, "mid" range is over and long range begins.

So -- you can use your 600 yard rifle at 1,000, or your 1,000 yard rifle at 600, but it isn't ideal.

The point of this is to decide which you especially want to compete in, and built for that. If you try to build one rifle for both, it will take some luck to be a winner. Yes, the 6-Dasher does win at 1,000 yards. But go look at a match report. Statistically, the bigger calibers win more matches. You have to be a bit lucky to wind up with one of those barrels that will let a 6mm win consistently at 1K.

It is your first rifle. If you get hooked, it won't be your last. The cost of a particular chambering is the dies and the brass and a barrel -- about $500 in components, but everything save the dies is guaranteed to wear out & need periodic replacement.

So make a choice, remember there is no magical chambering --or anything else -- and enjoy it.

Glad you're shooting with us.
 
Make it easy. Call Lester Bruno at Brunos. He probably has everything you need for your rifle in stock, it a true gentleman to deal with, one of the all time best bench rest shooters and knows what works.:D
 
Wow!

I asked a simple question...and got an outstanding response. Thanks Gents.

I have been researching this for a while now. My goal was to build the rifle myself. I am a machinist and looked at this project as a chance to start from the beginning by building it and doing all the work myself. I am not new to gun smithing as I have done a lot of it quite successfully. That being said I am probably more bold in my attempt than some guys. I simply don't want to go thru all the learning and experimenting to find my caliber. Why re-invent the wheel?

I started looking at bullets rather than anything else. I was astounded when I looked at the possibility of using the 7mm. I looked at Berger Bullets to find that they have a 7mm / 180 gr bullet with a BC of .659. Wow!

That being said it didn't make any sense to use a caliber / cartridge that isn't as popular as the 6.5-08 or the 6.5-284. The Berger 6.5 / 140 grain bullet has a BC of .618. Somehow I don't think the BC difference of .041 is going to make me take any trophies. I couldn't see building an odd ball that nobody seems to use.. just to use that 7mm bullet.

I honestly was simply thinking 6.5-06 from a brass availability standpoint. It sounds like the 284 brass is an easy deal to get...and I don't like brass forming..at all.

Ideally I wanted to use this rifle for long range...800-1000 yards. I have a Remington 700 in .223 for that shorter range dinking about. I have the wrong twist to shoot heavy bullets. I use a 53 grain Match King in that one... I wanted to explore the ranges beyond what that boom stick will do. I also wanted to learn from the long range experience.

I am contemplating starting from a stock Remington 700 action. Truing and lapping it. Adding a Jewell trigger and building from there. Any real issues with regard to potential limitations with a box stock action that has been trued and lapped? It sure would save a bunch of cash on a first time project. I suspect that I can't shoot to the full abilities of a $1500.00 receiver. So long as I drop some good money in a barrel and stock. Bed it right and hang good glass...along with a good trigger....it should get me a long way till my skills exceed the gun...right? Wrong? Should I build a race car to learn how to drive?

This damn shooting, precision loading, machining and mental challenge is a damn disease...

Thanks again for the info....
Cheers
Mac.
 
There is nothing wrong with a trued Remington 700 for a 1-K Light Gun. Many are used. Most of us feel they work best with either a barrel block, or sleeved. There are pluses and minuses to each. There are several stocks available. If this is for benchrest, either Shehane, Macmillan (the Tooley-MBR), or Kelbly have stocks. If it is for F-class, I'll pass on the advice.

BTW, the 7mm is not a bad chambering. I've toyed with the notion, but something new is the last thing I need just now. The bullet choice in 7mm is a bit restricted, compared to the 6mm, 6.5mm and .30. And one plus to a 6.5 is, with a brake, you can shoot free recoil if that turns out to be what the rifle likes.
 
Charles,
Thanks for the response,

Sleeving the action makes sense. That is something I can easily do. I see some web info that suggests JB welding the sleeves on. Is that typical as opposed to some other option like silver solder or brazing?

As for barrel blocking. Are you talking about an aluminum action bedding block?

My Remington 700 VSF in .223 Remington with 26" fluted barrel has a synthetic stock with aluminum action bedding block. If that is what you are suggesting that makes sense...as this one is very accurate.

Thanks again for the info... I think talking to the right fellows has me on a much accelerated learning curve compared to doping this out on my own!

Cheers
Mac.
 
Charles,

The MacMillan Tooley-MBR was the stock I had planned to use. I guess I have to...MacMillan is my last name...seems appropriate :D

I used to shoot 4 position indoor small bore target rifle. My rifle was an Anschutz 1903.

http://www.championshooters.com/1903big.htm

There were a number of things about this rifle that I really liked. My goal is to build something very close...in 6.5-284.

One of the things I always appreciated about the 1903 was the crisp trigger. That being said I look forward to installing a Jewell BRBR set to 2 ounces. It has been a lot of years since the Anschutz...but I think it was turned down to 2 ounces as well. Years of shooting that rifle made a standard rifle trigger seem like a staple gun. I have my 700 VSF set down to 1.5 pounds and many folks think that is REALLY LIGHT. Heh..NO! Not really.

I am almost afraid to go down the road of installing a Jewell trigger....for fear that I will need one for all my rifles!

Cheers
Mac.
 
Mac,

As you probably know, you will need a new bolt for the .223 action -- My friend Joel Pendergraft has a sleeved 700 in a MBR (along with many other people, I'm sure). If it were me, I'd spring for another 700, a long action. Long ago, the McGees use to use short action 700s with a .300 Weatherby, so it will work as a single load rifle, but there are compromises. And I'm not sure if you can get an MBR for a short action.

I use to shoot 4-position smallbore, both indoors and out, back in the late 1950s & early 1960s. That was Winchester 52 days; the Anschutz were just beginning to make an appearance.

Benchrest is different. Go to a couple matchs. In fact, if you have competition in mind, go to a match before you ever turn on the three-phase converter. As I remember, there aren't many, if any, 1,000 yard matches in Washington. 600 yes, IK I dunno.
 
Charles,

So...you would build that 6.5-284 on an 700 long action then? Make sense as the 284 is nearly the same length as the 30-06.

I am aware that ultimately I will have to tighten the action on the .223 someday.

I guess (oops) I should check the availability of 1000 yard matches in WA state. 'twould be embarrassing to as you say...start the rotary converter...for nothing.

While the Bridgeport would like the project...(I find that my lathe and Bridgeport run a little happier when working on gun projects..am I crazy) It would be pointless if there are no matches :eek::eek:

So...if that is the case....then perhaps it would be back to 6.5-08.. or 7-08.

Cheers
Mac
 
Well Charles,
You were right.. The availability of a 1000 yard range is going to pose a HUGE obstacle. There is one...about 300+ miles away. Hell of a trip to test loads. Looks like I can drive about 75 miles and get to a 600 yard range. Up where I live...it looks like everyone can shoot with a 4 power scope...lots of 200 yard options.

Hmmmm..... I can get a good 500 yard range to shoot ...but we are talking out in the stink weeds...not really a match range....however the scenery is pretty... I'll have to see if I can get a 1000 yard line of site to practice on...so I could attend matches at the far away range...

Damn...I just wanted to build a gun. Now I have to rent a dozer..and build a range. Sheesh:D:D

Cheers
Mac.
 
Well Charles,
You were right.. The availability of a 1000 yard range is going to pose a HUGE obstacle. There is one...about 300+ miles away. Hell of a trip to test loads. Looks like I can drive about 75 miles and get to a 600 yard range. Up where I live...it looks like everyone can shoot with a 4 power scope...lots of 200 yard options.

Hmmmm..... I can get a good 500 yard range to shoot ...but we are talking out in the stink weeds...not really a match range....however the scenery is pretty... I'll have to see if I can get a 1000 yard line of site to practice on...so I could attend matches at the far away range...

Damn...I just wanted to build a gun. Now I have to rent a dozer..and build a range. Sheesh:D:D

Cheers
Mac.

Mac
It is 100 miles from me to the closest 600 yard range and 300 miles to the closest 1000yd range(Byers, CO).

I had a little trouble justifying the 300 mile trip to shoot 1000 the first time but it's worth it.:)
I even made it to Pella, IA once this year, about 440 miles.
Sure wish they would get the Northern Missouri range going, that wouldn't be much further for me than Byers.

I do all my load development at 200yards and a little practicing at 300, but most of my practice is at the matches.:D

For starting out I think the 6mm Dasher is a good choice, lots of help and easy to tune. If you look at 1000yd match results you will notice that there more people shooting them it the time.
Of course if you choose to shoot F-Class (belly benchrest)you will get a lot of help with the 6.5-284 too.

James
 
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