Is hurricane sandy a bellwether?

V

vicvanb

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No one can prove that last winter's abnormally warm temperatures, last summer's huge drought, the melting of arctic sea ice again this summer, or hurricane Sandy's unprecedented size and strength were caused by man-made climate change, but these sort of extreme weather events are exactly what the climate science experts predicted given the increased temperatures over the entire planet in recent years. How many more years of similarly severe weather events with their huge associated costs will it take before we agree to address the root cause?
 
We are the root cause, it is all outlined in the book Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth, the changes taking place are not man made and no amount of money can change it.

J.Louis
 
My two cents worth

Around 20,000 years ago much of the earth was in the grips of an ice age. That's a pretty undisputed fact. Something happened that began warming up the planet which brought us out of the ice age. Perhaps that change is still with us which is why it is continuing to get warmer. I don't think the change that occurred was the industrial revolution either. The one thing I am glad about is that it is getting warmer and not drifting into another ice age.
Andy.
 
I thought they said we were headed to another ice age 30 years ago. Where did it go???????

Around 20,000 years ago much of the earth was in the grips of an ice age. That's a pretty undisputed fact. Something happened that began warming up the planet which brought us out of the ice age. Perhaps that change is still with us which is why it is continuing to get warmer. I don't think the change that occurred was the industrial revolution either. The one thing I am glad about is that it is getting warmer and not drifting into another ice age.
Andy.
 
Yep they sure did Dave although I think it might have been further back, along with the nuclear winter hand wringers were crying about in the late fifties and early 60's. Any time there is as much volcanic activity and earquake/ landmass plate shifts as we have had in the past few years there are bound to be changes. One of the quakes out in the ocean caused current shifts, that alone will affect climate on dry land. Plate shift just a few days ago up in Canada along the fault line. Think of trillions of tons that volcano in Iceland pumped into the atmosphere a few years ago. That pumped more noxious stuff out than man has in his total history. But none of these global warmer frenzies ever even mention these occurrences in their treatises. Gee, I hope I used the words correctly.
 
The global climate is certainly a curious discussion, fraught with disinformation and "don't clutter my brain up with facts". I publish a newsletter for a conservative think tank and the following is a commentary from this month's issue which is an interesting read:


Frontline’s Climate Change Consensus
COMMENTARY

On October 23 PBS’s Frontline presented a feature entitled “Climate of Doubt: Frontline investigates how climate skeptics mobilized, built their argument and undermined public acceptance of a global scientific consensus”. Its aim was to give viewers a tour through the shadowy world of sinister interests selling the idea that anthropogenic (“human-caused”) global warming is a myth, a hoax, and a scam.

PBS reporter John Hockenberry put on screen crowds of Tea Party activists holding that view, and interviewed conservative activists like Tim Phillips (Americans for Prosperity) and Myron Ebell (Competitive Enterprise Institute). These were described as “fighting science with doubt and delay”.

Hockenberry interviewed – and heavily edited – only one skeptical climate scientist, Dr. Fred Singer. In response to Hockenberry’s implication that the skeptics were few and unqualified, Singer replied that some 31,000 persons with scientific degrees had signed the 1998 “Oregon Petition”, the key sentence of which is “There is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon-dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gases is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth’s atmosphere and disruption of the Earth’s climate”. There were, incidentally, 51 signers from Vermont, 22 of them with doctorates in science or medicine.

To dismiss the Oregon Petition, Frontline asserted at least twice during the program that “97 percent of active climate researchers” believe that humans are a significant cause of global warming. (“Significant” can range from “the most influential” to “barely detectable”.) Thus, why should you few skeptics be taken seriously?

The origin of this often-quoted percentage is curious. Canadian environmentalist Lawrence Solomon was a global warming believer until he authored a 2008 book entitled The Deniers: The world-renowned scientists who stood up against global warming hysteria, political persecution, and fraud. More recently he traced the origin of the “97 percent” assertion back to a two-minute online survey of 10,257 earth scientists, conducted in 2009 by two researchers at the University of Illinois.

The researchers, Doran and Zimmerman, deliberately excluded the solar scientists, space scientists, cosmologists, physicists, meteorologists and astronomers who might have thought that the sun and planetary movements might have something to do with Earth’s climate.

They also decided that neither academic qualifications nor scientific accomplishment would be a factor in whose responses could be accepted – about 1,000 of those surveyed did not have a PhD, and some didn’t even have a Master’s degree. They reduced the list to 3,146 who responded to these two questions:

1. When compared with pre-1800s levels, do you think that mean global temperatures have generally risen, fallen, or remained relatively constant?

2. Do you think human activity is a significant contributing factor in changing mean global temperatures? Ninety percent of the respondents answered “risen” to the first question, presumably assuming it referred to the pre-1850 Little Ice Age. Eighty two percent of the respondents answered “yes” to the second question.

Those percentages weren’t impressive enough for the researchers, so they further reduced the sample until only 77 remained. Seventy five of the select 77 said “yes” to both questions, producing the desired “consensus” finding that “97 percent of “active climate researchers” believe that humans are a significant cause of global warming. Those human activities, incidentally, include land use changes as well as greenhouse gas emissions.

This manufactured “consensus” is obviously dishonest, but Frontline repeated it twice while alleging that skeptical scientists were largely funded by fossil fuel interests and other undesirables.

One Vermont politician who has made himself a champion of a supposed climate change consensus is Gov. Peter Shumlin. He has repeatedly blamed human-caused “climate change” for every noticeable weather event, and predicts that unless checked it will lead to an “unspeakably horrid future”. “The evidence is overwhelming,” he has declared, “and any other conclusion is simply irresponsible.”

So you must accept Shumlin’s personal conclusion about the Menace of Global Warming, or you’re simply irresponsible, well beyond the pale of civilized discussion. This would be merely annoying, but for the fact that Shumlin’s nonexistent climate change consensus is the indispensable rationale for his sweeping program of energy taxes, mandates, subsidies, regulations, and credits, many of which seem to produce wealth for his friends in the renewable industrial complex at the expense of everybody else.
 
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Who do you choose to believe? I just watched Joe Bastardi ( world renowned climatologist), who stated that climate change and/or global warming was NOT the cause of the recent hurricane in the NE. On the other hand we have Al Gore who claims the opposite. Along with Al are a bunch of meterologists with an agenda who have been proven to manipulate the data to prove their "hockey stick" theory. One can choose to believe whatever he/she wishes, but I will continue to be skeptical of anything that the inventor of the internet (one AL Gore) has to say. James
 
Denial is usually based on fear. What is it that so badly frightens the skeptics?
 
renewable industrial complex

You must be joking. Wind and solar represent less than 2% of the market. Their lobbyists have to take senators to Starbucks for coffee, while the oil companies can afford to fly them to Paris for dinner. Exxon is worth somewhere around half a trillion dollars. Guess who is in your representatives' pockets the deepest? Guess who can afford a web of PR to sway your opinion?
 
Who do you choose to believe?

Actually, you don't have "believe" anything one way or the other. The data is pretty clear. Atmospheric CO2 levels have not been above about 275 ppm in 400,000 years, until the industrial revolution. The amount of fossil fuel burned since the early 1900's exceeds that necessary to raise atmospheric CO2 levels to their current 390 ppm or so. We are lucky that some of it has gone into the oceans, although the oceans are not happy about it either.

If enough people pee in the pool often enough, eventually is turns yellow.:eek:
 
Bellwether, or harbinger?

In any case, there is a solution for global warming. It is called nuclear winter. The trick is to keep it to a certain size, like, say, having India and Pakistan exchange all their nukes. Now that would take careful political management...
 
Bellwether, or harbinger?

In any case, there is a solution for global warming. It is called nuclear winter. The trick is to keep it to a certain size, like, say, having India and Pakistan exchange all their nukes. Now that would take careful political management...

Yep, that would do it.;) A few nukes every few months could decrease atmospheric transmissivity the right amount. Think of the new JOBS created, too.:cool:
 
Yep, that would do it.;) A few nukes every few months could decrease atmospheric transmissivity the right amount. Think of the new JOBS created, too.:cool:
Yeah, there is nothing like building something, blowing it up, and building it again to stimulate an economy.

Religious opportunities, too. A whole new reason for human sacrifice...

All while fixing the carbon emissions problem. We sure ain't going to get there by willpower and thinking about the future.
 
Denial is usually based on fear. What is it that so badly frightens the skeptics?

It's not fear, but skepticism of the source. After watching so many examples of self-serving, liberal bias over the years, the credibility of the premise is what's missing.
 
We don't know

Irrespective of which camp is correct, if in fact any of them are, this fact remains. If we were to stop using fossil fuels in their entirety today it wouldn't stop the planet heating up or produce any measurable decline for hundreds of years. So assuming that humans were responsible it's too little too late. We made our bed and now we have to lie in it.

But as an astro physicist once pointed out to me. That little star out there we call the sun will one day begin to colllapse on itself become a red giant and earth will be consumed. Oh but thats is too far in the future to be concerned about. Ok well another fact is that everything that lives eventually dies. That includes the whole planet. I can accept that and don't fear it.
Andy
 
...........How many more years of similarly severe weather events with their huge associated costs will it take before we agree to address the root cause?..........

forever vic

forever

if I've learned anything in 50yrs it's that we CANNOT agree. It's like oil and water, I'm one and you're the other, we simply do not draw the same conclusions from the same data. Pick a subject, we will disagree. :)

(By "we" I mean my side and your side. I need to make this crystal clear before being accused of "personal attacks!")

LOL
al
 
Particularly Al, since we've (well, "they") decided it is a political rather than scientific phenomena.

'Us' & 'them' un-group and regroup. Only thing you can count on.
 
Irrespective of which camp is correct, if in fact any of them are, this fact remains. If we were to stop using fossil fuels in their entirety today it wouldn't stop the planet heating up or produce any measurable decline for hundreds of years. So assuming that humans were responsible it's too little too late. We made our bed and now we have to lie in it.
Andy


There are some effects that it is too late to reverse, but what we do over the next several decades is extremely important to what kind of world we leave to our children and grandchildren. The mean temperature of the Earth has already risen by about 1 F, and even if we were to stop emitting carbon as soon as possible, it will continue to rise to 2.5 F above normal by the end of the century. But if world emissions continue to grow at current rates, the rise will be 10 F. Sea level rose by about 7 inches in the 20th century, and will rise another 7 to 22 inches, depending on what we do. These are big differences.

These model predictions are so well accepted among the scientific community that NASA summarizes them on their website: http://climate.nasa.gov/effects/ Although, the sea level rise estimates keep getting revised upwards as mechanisms for self-accelerating effects are incorporated into the models.
 
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