IR 50/50 275 Type Scoring

[tonykharper]

For those that may not know, this is a match that uses the standard IR 50/50 target, but it is scored differently. One point is added to your score for each X shot.

That means it is possible to score 275 points per target.

One of the problems with the current IR 50/50 scoring system is one can shoot a 250 10X target and beat a 249 24 X target.

Saying this another way, and I'm fully aware this is controversial, many shooters believe the shooter that shoots the aggregate (all 25) of his/her bullets closest to the center of the target should receive the highest score.

With the current scoring system that is not always the case.

The 275 scoring system is an elegant solution without an additional expense.

However, there are problems with implementing 275 scoring. All current IR 50/50 records would have to be frozen, and new records would have to be recognized.

This has been debated in the past but up until now there has not been sufficient interests to move this idea forward.

TKH (4628)

 

[tim]

IMHO you want to kill off a shooting organization, change the fundamental way in which it has been scored for 20+ years. Wipe out all records, HOF points, wipe out all history, make everybody start from scratch.
There already exists 10 shot which embraces much of what this represents.

 

[Fred J]

I agree.

 

[Rayhill]

275 Scoring ?

Got to agree with ya Tim
And BTW let's not change the rules is baseball either
Ray

 

[linekin]

I've thought about this for several days now. While I try to be open minded to new ideas & have no real issue with 275 scoring, I too feel the same as the rest. I'm not in favor of a change to IR50 as we know it. Any 275 matches should be left for "fun" or" money" matches imo.
I've been apart of quite a few matches including the Nationals where the Agg winner didn't shoot the highest X count. Some by quite a few & therefore the outcome would have been different. Not once have I thought the wrong shooter won.
To me the 10 ring is the great equalizer for those of us that have less than stellar rifles And thats what keeps it interesting. If a change to 275 was implemented in all likelihood the same few would be winning every match. The way its always been the majority have a chance. Thats a good thing.
Frankly Tony, I'm a little disappointed in you for even considering the change. As someone I consider an ambassador for our sport I sure didn't expect that. I gotta wonder what the motivation is here. Did a few slip away you're still sour about?

Keith

 

[Eidolon]

Tony as you well know the bi-pod posse shoots the 275 format. Makes sense to me.
As you pointed out shooting 249 24x and losing to a 250 8x seems inherently wrong.
On the other hand shooting a 249 15x and losing to a 247 19x also seems inherently wrong.
Both formats have pluses and minuses.

After Saturday I should have some examples to share but at my club, Canton McKinley Rifle & Pistol, we have our own target and scoring system used during our 50’ indoor season.
We electronically score the targets using a scanner and software developed by a member. For each individual shot how far from center is calculated in mils. And the aggregate total is the score. So lowest number wins.
Ultimately Rimfire benchrest is about accuracy and there is no better method to calculate accuracy.
IMO the PSL target should be scored in this manner.

 

[Slick Willy]

Reinvention : The Wheel

More Life Boats on the Titanic ! Bi Pod Posse does their own Thing ! Tractor George just does it and lets others sink and puts Bipods on Factory Guns and lets the Women Cook ! They Show and They Shoot ! Life Jackets anyone !

The ChickenFoot 275 was shot by 46 Shooters and was the lowest numbered shooters of the Weekend ! Complete failure ! Don`t do it !

 

[tonykharper]

I've thought about this for several days now. While I try to be open minded to new ideas & have no real issue with 275 scoring, I too feel the same as the rest. I'm not in favor of a change to IR50 as we know it. Any 275 matches should be left for "fun" or" money" matches imo.
I've been apart of quite a few matches including the Nationals where the Agg winner didn't shoot the highest X count. Some by quite a few & therefore the outcome would have been different. Not once have I thought the wrong shooter won.
To me the 10 ring is the great equalizer for those of us that have less than stellar rifles And thats what keeps it interesting. If a change to 275 was implemented in all likelihood the same few would be winning every match. The way its always been the majority have a chance. Thats a good thing.
Frankly Tony, I'm a little disappointed in you for even considering the change. As someone I consider an ambassador for our sport I sure didn't expect that. I gotta wonder what the motivation is here. Did a few slip away you're still sour about?

Keith

Keith,

I'm sorry I disappointed you, that was not my intent.

I highlighted part of your post. You are absolutely right. I've known this for a long time.

IR 50/50 has been in this conundrum ever since the day it was born. Call it a conundrum or a misconception?

If RFBR is about ultimate accuracy there is no place for the "great equalizer".

If it is about sharing the winners circle then that is a different thing.

You may remember the IR 50/50 unlimited class was born out of an attempt to gain shooters. The thought was there were too many rules and restrictions in the three gun classes.

It worked to some extent but the "great equalizer" worked against the effort since ARA and PSL were available.

Wayne Wills implemented 10-shot which created an absolute accuracy requirement to IR 50/50. It has now been around for a few years but has not gained much of a following.

I put this post up to bring attention to the success of the 275 match held at Chickenfoot. The attendance at that match was larger than any other IR 50/50 match this year.

At this point I can't put my finger on the heart felt objection to 275 scoring. It sounds like shooters don't want to lose the history of IR 50/50 and I understand that. I would hate that too.

But I don't think anyone is pushing to convert all classes of IR 50/50 to 275 scoring. I certainly haven't.

Perhaps it could be tried for the unlimited class? Or as you said, a few money matches a year? I don't know.

I guess I'm grasping at straws.

TKH (4628)

 

[tonykharper]

More Life Boats on the Titanic ! Bi Pod Posse does their own Thing ! Tractor George just does it and lets others sink and puts Bipods on Factory Guns and lets the Women Cook ! They Show and They Shoot ! Life Jackets anyone !

The ChickenFoot 275 was shot by 46 Shooters and was the lowest numbered shooters of the Weekend ! Complete failure ! Don`t do it !

Slick,

I take it that it was such a failure you will not be holding any more of these 275 matches at your range?

TKH (4628)

 

[Bob1949]

Make it a game

Someone has thought of a new game that can be played on the old IR 50/50 card and called it IR 50/50 275.
I don’t have a problem with that.
The thing is that a lot of shooters still think of the “Dot” in the middle of the target as an X.
In IR 50/50 275, that “Dot” just represents another point equal to 11.
Scoring records, for this new game, should be kept separate from any other IR 50/50 game.
All this, of course, depends on weather some national organization want’s to promote it.

Bob

 

[Slick Willy]

My boat is loaded!

Slick,

I take it that it was such a failure you will not be holding any more of these 275 matches at your range?

TKH (4628)

My game is People Tony ! Not every one shot it; Parsons said it might mess up his thinking ,so he didn`t Play ! Overall every one seem to like it cause you could recover from a -1 or even a -2 ! Ray Worley at KettleFoot that feeds everyone there has already got a Red Target 275 and I see it taking off ! People up there like it better I hear! Sit on your Laurels and they can read about you in the archives ! HOF, Records , and other Trivial BS ! People at matches is the only thing that will keep things afloat ! Wilbur Harris I heard got every penny from selling it to Bill H and everyone else ?

PS: ARA is changing to a PSL type X count in 2022 Freezing all history !

 

[tonykharper]

My game is People Tony ! Not every one shot it; Parsons said it might mess up his thinking ,so he didn`t Play ! Overall every one seem to like it cause you could recover from a -1 or even a -2 ! Someone at KettleFoot that feeds everyone there has already got a Red Target 275 and I see it taking off ! People up there like it better I hear! Sit on your Laurels and they can read about you in the archives ! HOF, Records , and other Trivial BS ! People at matches is the only thing that will keep things afloat ! Wilbur Harris I heard got every penny from selling it to Bill H and everyone else ?

PS: ARA is changing to a PSL type X count in 2022 Freezing all history !

Come on Slick, no more democrat answers. It was a simple question, you having anymore 275 matches or not?

TKH (4628)

 

[Slick Willy]

Money Matches

Come on Slick, no more democrat answers. It was a simple question, you having anymore 275 matches or not?

TKH (4628)

Pretty easy to score ,so yeah ! NO Democrats here!

Did you read my last sentence ? ARA is Changing to a PSL Wipe Out X count in 2022! No Choice or options! Trying to get the GOAT to Think SIX again !

 

[doclu60]

I really don't think the IR275 was a failure because of how it's scored, it was what it was. A money match held at the end of the practice day (a weekday) as a support match to the sanctioned matches that followed. I don't recall how many we had for the BR-50 money match in March, but the participation was lower than the Nationals, if memory serves me correctly. A lot of shooters won't, or can't, leave other of life's commitments to be gone for additional days during the week. Just like a lower shooter count for Friday's PSL.

I liked the format, though I didn't do that great in it, but did shoot a 750 over the three cards plus my X count. Lack of indoor experience and most likely middle of the road ammo caused a lack of X count for me. I personally do not think the scoring should be adapted for sanctioned IR matches. I actually actively shoot IR in what I consider it's purest form, 3-gun. Leave the scoring alone for IR, it forces the competitor to keep all their shots as close to middle of the target as possible. Considering in most matches you have to shoot a 750 to have a shot at the lead, and also the fact a 'soft' 10 is a 50 on the ARA card, I really don't see what is 'broke' about the current scoring. Remember, Mike won the Indoor Nationals by just 10 points. Good thing out of all those shots one wasn't a soft 10 on the IR card!

JMO.......Scott

 

[tim]

Tony, these forums should embrace everybody’s thinking about the sport which is a healthy excercise.
Let’t put history aside for a minute. Unless I am mistaken the entirety of score type shooting,Nbrsa, IBS centerfire, Prone, Camp Perry, ISSF; etc. All of it, every single discipline…… points first, then X’s. Seems to work quite well long before the WLM “ pure accuracy” bulls..t
That and, no doubt, scores at matches have been through the roof for a while so I’d also throw out there that this, honestly, seems to be a solution in search of a problem. One man’s opinion, worth exactly what you paid for it.

 

[stiller]

It kind of boils down to the definition of accuracy.

Some people think accuracy is how good the good shots are. That is where the 10 shot thing really shines. A really bad shot doesn't really hurt that much. In ARA a bad shot is recoverable, same in PSL. It really hits hard in IR50. Depending on how bad, group shooting can be the worst hit of all. Almost everyone I know seems to think group shooting is the true measure of accuracy btw.

To me accuracy isn't just how good the good ones are, but how bad are the bad ones? How many sports define the best by how well you perform on the good performance, and discount the bad? Not many I am guessing. A screw up kills you in most things, racing, boxing, whatever. To me, the guys that don't shoot bad ones are much more in the game then those that do along with their great ones. In my opinion, a great uniform gun should shoot all the targets as close to the same score as possible.

That's where I differ from some others, most notably Calfee. Calfee keeps spouting "X's are accuracy", "2500's are accuracy" etc. How many things in life are won by the best performance versus lost by a bad? Not many I guess. Uniformity and consistency in performance is accuracy to me. Very seldom does that 2450 win you the match like that 2100 loses it for you. With very few exceptions, the winner is the guy that shoots good all the time, not the guy that shoots good mostly with a great one and a crappy one too. Go look at the scores for the last match. How many guys lost on one target out? Quite a few. How do I know that? Go look at the last ARA nationals.

In the end, leave IR50 alone if that is what the guys that shoot it want. Either add a class to it or leave it be. IF I added the class I would call it IR50 Extreme. Use unlimited rules and put the scoring back to 250 for a perfect target, just move each score in a ring. In example an X is a dot wipeout, touch the dot for a 10, touch the ring for a 9 etc. 275 just seems odd to me.

 

[ewwills]

Great Post Jerry, I Agree!

 

[tonykharper]

I would like to thank all that posted here.

We have had the opportunity to hear how many of the main drivers of RFBR feel about the subject.

It has been a good exchange of ideas.

Thanks again.

TKH (4628)

 

[Eidolon]

Tony as you well know the bi-pod posse shoots the 275 format. Makes sense to me.
As you pointed out shooting 249 24x and losing to a 250 8x seems inherently wrong.
On the other hand shooting a 249 15x and losing to a 247 19x also seems inherently wrong.
Both formats have pluses and minuses.

After Saturday I should have some examples to share but at my club, Canton McKinley Rifle & Pistol, we have our own target and scoring system used during our 50’ indoor season.
We electronically score the targets using a scanner and software developed by a member. For each individual shot how far from center is calculated in mils. And the aggregate total is the score. So lowest number wins.
Ultimately Rimfire benchrest is about accuracy and there is no better method to calculate accuracy.
IMO the PSL target should be scored in this manner.

How we are scoring our 50 foot indoor targets